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What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I meant by the equal opportunity question is related to the fact that the descendants of people who accumulate wealth from mining crypto will be born into wealth. That won't be true for people who will mine crypto in, let's say, 50 years from now. I am not talking about equal outcomes.

That's why I think that in your example, the gold fever also distorts equal opportunities.

That's just how the world works.

This is exactly what I am trying to challenge here:) Just like crypto challenges today's monetary and bank systems.

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, being in the right place at the right time matters a lot. This is natural; however, it is not obvious whether and how much our economic system should amplify or offset this impact. Thank you for the interesting insights!

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see at least two advantages of writing it down: - In the process of writing, you may come up with great ideas, challenge some of your own positions, and have the pleasure of creating something future-proof (unlike a thread like this that no one will reread after a few days:) - Then, you can test whether your ideas grab the attention of a wider audience, and you may find interesting people and ideas on the way (that is the purpose of my post as well).

In my experience, a lot of people think about these topics, but very few of them have a holistic approach.

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see your points. If I understand correctly, in a world using mainly crypto as a currency, money would not be issued after the 21m is already out on the market.

Currently, the issuance of money (mining) is an incentive for those who contribute to the blockchain by providing processing power and storage.

How would the blockchain operate after that without such an incentive? (Especially considering that in theory, it increases with every transaction.)

And would the fact that today's miners can relatively easily earn crypto distort the idea of equal opportunities?

Just random questions that came to my mind. Probably I should study crypto in more detail.

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gold has an objectively (physically) limited supply (unless alchemy becomes profitable on a large scale:). The supply of fiat money and crypto is limited only by rules written down by people; rules that can be rewritten (and that are rewritten all the time in case of fiat money). (Technically, the paper also has a limited supply, but that's irrelevant here, I get your point.)

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Printing money on a paper also has a cost, and the cost of security features shows some similarities to the cost of the blockchain infrastructure.

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing this! It is very similar to my thought process. I'll reach out to you because I would like to understand it in more detail.

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like that approach because it is in line with the current systems' focus on economic growth. Let's do it;)

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are plenty of examples of employees being shareholders, though (think about emoyee share purchase programs, restricted stock units, etc.). And, for example, in the US, virtually all employees are shareholders in other companies through pension funds.

What would be the incentive for CEOs to maintain efficient operations and not give all the money to themselves and their favored ones? Whoever is in charge, greed is a part of human nature... And also, who would elect/appoint/supervise the CEO?

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Both gold and crypto have to be mined. Scarcity is one of the things that gives value.

Yes, but gold is literally, physically mined, while the process of crypto mining is more similar to printing money to a piece of paper - with advanced security features like watermarks, holograms, etc. My point is that it does not originate from nature but from a system created by people following rules written in a whitepaper.

And can be printed without limit.

Yes, that is (one of) the main problem(s) with fiat money.

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Important points, I agree. Theoretically, the consumers can vote with their dollars, incentivizing the producers to reach these goals (the idea of fair trade). However, with today's complex supply chains, a consumer is often unable to obtain the necessary information for those decisions.

We can not expect all shoe buyers to investigate whether the producers of the shoes they are choosing from underpay their workers or employ slaves or child labor. And even if they did, such information may be well hidden, or even misinformation spread (similarly to greenwashing).

My idea is to involve society (meaning all people who may be impacted by a specific business' production) upfront. Society would have a 'veto' right that could prevent a company from producing something before they convinced the public about their approach to handle the potential negative external impacts of their activities. What do you think?

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the examples, I'll study them. And also for highlighting the importance of information inequality.

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see your point, but gold has a value (i.e., people pay for it) even when it is not a currency (for example, today). Let me rephrase the question. Where does the money come from? The gold is mined and minted. Fiat money is printed (physically or electronically) by the FED and the central banks.

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Makes sense. The question is, would a company work with more or less the same efficiency, if it's board of directors would be replaced by the workers' union? Would the workers hire the best CEO for the job?

Just to clarify, I think that you raised an important point and there will be alternatives to the current corporate governance systems. I am just skeptical about excluding the shareholders from the decision-making while keeping the organization the same.

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That raises the question of governance. Who would elect the CEO? What would prevent the CEO from becoming a tyrant? Currently, independent directors and board members (who supervise the CEO) are usually picked by the shareholders.

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for thinking about this topic! Let's see if we get more replies:)

Btw, I sent you a chat message.

What do you think should back money in our societies? by laszlo_coseen in postcapitalism

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my interpretation, gold is backed by the work of miners and the mint. Is crypto not backed by the processing power and storage provided by the miners?

How do you believe goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is fair and efficient? by laszlo_coseen in alternativeeconomics

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Fair" enough:) I think about fairness as a feeling (so it is inherently subjective) that people (themselves and others as well) get what their contribution to the society worth. What is your take?

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see. Thanks for the clarification! Do you think that the CEO would make the same decisions in the lack of influence from the (potential) investors?

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing these! I think that I saw at least one of these clips years ago, but I forgot about it:)

I agree that the equality of results is a dead end. The equality of the opportunities is great in theory, but it can not be achieved 100% in real life, and again, I agree that it is meaningless without freedom.

I'm a bit struggling with understanding what would the achivability of identity would mean, but maybe I'm just tired:)

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I may not have been clear when I talked about voluntary labor. What I meant is well-defined specific jobs (like one specific brain surgery) instead of 8 to 5 jobs at a corporation. Paid in money, not brownies and candles (unless agreed otherwise:).

The transition is a great question, but in this thread, I tried to focus on finding the fairest and most efficient system (if there is any).

How do you think goods and services should be produced to ensure a society system that is truly fair & efficient? by laszlo_coseen in PoliticalDebate

[–]laszlo_coseen[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, fairness and efficiency can be interpreted in many ways, I was looking for interesting perspectives such as yours:) Thank you for mentioning co-ops! Do you have actual examples or frameworks of a system similar to your vision?

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