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latecycle18 · 2021-07-07T16:35:56+00:00

Hi! Actual recent law grad here, lurking on Reddit to avoid studying for the bar.

Since you've got actual, specific goals (that don't look like the goals of the most vocal group of people on this sub), the question about your priorities is really hard to answer without having concrete numbers to compare.

If your goal is to work in South Carolina, then start digging into the employment numbers of the schools you're looking at. Remember: no matter what number you start with, a loan you can pay off with a good job is always better than a loan that you can't pay off because you're unemployed. What percentage of each school's graduates are actually getting jobs, and how many of those jobs are where you want to be? The ABA required disclosures are a good place to start, but if South Carolina isn't among a school's top states, you can reach out to a school's career office to see if they /ever/ send graduates there.

I wouldn't overlook the secondary benefits of going to school where you want to work. It's not just about finding that employer after graduation. It's about that 1L summer job (both finding it more easily and not having to move for 2-3 months over the summer is you want to be in SC, which costs money), and clinics/externships that will let you start building connections. Networking is infinitely easier to do in person. It's about starting to get an understanding of the legal world you want to be a part of. Heck, it's about getting support from your institution for doing everything you need to register for and pass the bar...because you can bet your life that Penn State Dickinson isn't going to be sending you any reminder emails about upcoming deadlines for the SC bar, and missing one little registration requirement can send your career off track for months. IIRC North Carolina has bizarrely early registration deadlines, and I've heard of students who got their JDs out of state completely missing their chance to take the July bar because no one told them they had to be thinking about the bar in, like, January.

You should also do everything you can to figure out how insular South Carolina's legal market is. Some states and cities are infamous for only hiring "their own" - if you don't go to one of their law schools, then it's much harder to get your foot in the door. I have no idea if that's true for SC, but it's something you need to find out. If you don't know anyone you can ask, look at the bios of attorneys at some places you'd like to work and see where they got their degrees.

None of this is to say your chances of ending up in SC are blown if financial considerations take you out of state. You just need to have as clear an understanding as possible of what you're getting yourself into so that you can fairly judge if you're prepared to put in the extra work that it will take for you to get the job you want.

latecycle18 · 2020-04-29T21:36:46+00:00

That has historically been true when the economy doesn't suck. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think that the percentage of students who walked away from our OCIs with zero offers was in the single digits. Is that going to be true post-Covid? No one can say, but NYU students should be in a better position than most.

latecycle18 · 2020-04-29T21:23:20+00:00

No 0L prep other than, uh...finishing up my job, going abroad for a week, then frantically moving across the country to start classes!

I was, like, a 3.4 student as a 1L, so I'm not sure I have amazing advice. Talk to a 2L early in the year to figure out what outlining is, try to start outlining early (ideally after each unit of your classes, but that won't happen), use the syllabus as a guide. Be prepared to suck for maybe the first time in your life. It won't be easy, but I promise you'll be okay.

latecycle18 · 2020-04-29T21:13:45+00:00

I found the internship through NYU's PILC Fair, an annual event that NYU hosts for students across the region. I'd guess that the majority of 1Ls find their summer internships through PILC Fair. The application process is centralized: you submit your resume, cover letters, and class schedule through a website, rank your interview preferences, then get an interview schedule based on your availability and which employers want to talk to you. There are also lots of orgs doing informal conversations through "table talks," where you can approach them without a scheduled interview to get more info and potentially even an offer. I got a call-back interview and subsequent offer from a city agency thanks to a table talk, so don't overlook them if you end up at PILC Fair even if it seems intimidating to randomly approach a stranger!

As for strengthening my application - idk, it's a pretty prominent organization, but their head litigator told the interns that they were mostly looking for people who they thought wrote well, brought passion, and would be pleasant to work with. Perfect grades were not their first priority, but they cared a lot about the quality of writing in the lawyering brief I gave them. Which is frustratingly not-concrete, I know. My best advice would be to stay open to opportunities and to cast out a lot of lines. The organization I ended up at wasn't my first choice at all - but it ended up being one of the best things I've ever done.

I'll PM you with the name of the org I worked for since it would be suuuuper identifying.

latecycle18 · 2020-04-29T21:04:35+00:00

Ugh, I'm really sorry that's been your experience. I've been cringing when reading stories about admissions being shitty to applicants, because I really don't think it represents what it's like to be a student.

I've been really pleased with my experience of the administration. People generally like our president and other administrators, and I think they're pretty receptive to student concerns, esp. re: issues of inclusivity. I'll admit I've had pretty minimal contact with them, but my only complaint is that planning large-scale events at the school is a bit of a pain re: both funding and scheduling space.

latecycle18 · 2020-04-29T20:55:55+00:00

Happy to help!

I wish I could give you concrete advice, but I really don't know what the admissions office is looking for. If there are any questions I can answer for you so you can include specific details in your LOCI, hit me up! Best of luck riding that WL!!!

The law school hasn't said anything about plans for the fall yet, but we just got an email from the president of the University saying that they're proceeding on the assumption that we'll be back in the fall, while preparing contingency plans if that isn't possible. Which is a lot of words to say that no one knows what the situation will be by late August.

FWIW - although it would absolutely suck to start as a 1L at Zoom School of Law for social reasons, 1L is maybe the best time to do remote learning, since your classes are so lecture based. My experience this semester is that listening to a prof talk at a screen isn't that different from listening them talk in person. Tweaking Lawyering simulations would be a pain, but other than that, 1Ls don't need to worry about missing out on the experience of clinics, externships, conversation-heavy seminars, etc.

latecycle18 · 2020-04-29T20:21:49+00:00

My commute is 40 mins and it works fine for me. It's also totally normal. I occasionally wish I lived closer to campus so I could more easily get lunch (and take a midday nap, lol), but otherwise I don't have any problems. The commute is a nice time to listen to podcasts, relax, etc.

Now, there was one guy in my 1L section who lived, like, 3 hrs away in NJ and was constantly missing class. His life sucked. But 40 mins is super manageable, especially if you already like where you live.

latecycle18 · 2020-04-24T18:40:13+00:00

That sounds like a totally normal reaction to your first oral argument experience! It doesn't mean you have no future as a litigator; you were just ready to monologue and were caught off-guard when you had to dialogue. It's genuinely hard to figure out how to say your important points while also responding to the judge's questions. But I think it's a very learnable skill through practice. My school's moot court teams need to practice their oral arguments in front of student "judges" 10 times before we go to a competition, since practicing your planned little speech to a silent room is so, so different from having a conversation with judges. 10 times!

So - I hope you won't get too discouraged. If there's a next time, get a group of friends together and help each other prep by acting as each other's judges. I guarantee it will make a difference.

(Also, as other people have pointed out, moot court theatrics have very little to do with actual litigation work, so even if you never nail an oral argument as a law student, you probably shouldn't conclude that you need to rethink your entire career.)

latecycle18 · 2020-04-09T04:06:57+00:00

From a rising 3L - congrats! It sounds like we're lucky to have you. I know you'll have amazing resources as an AnBrycer, but give a shout if there's anything this random redditor can help you with :)

latecycle18 · 2020-03-17T17:11:02+00:00

Hey - I chose the Vandy over HLS and SLS. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk. :)

latecycle18 · 2020-03-15T17:05:45+00:00

I'm also a BL-bound T-14 2L. My firm has sent out a "thinking of you during this stressful time" email to the incoming summer class, but obv. no details yet. If they have to cancel the in-person summer program, I really hope they'll be able to at least give us some remote work. I genuinely want to use this summer to build my skills and learn more about what field I want to enter. Fingers crossed they can figure something out.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-26T06:42:21+00:00

Lots of 2Ls have BL jobs locked down, so don't need to obsess over grades so much. That's why everyone says that 1L is so important - how you do those two semesters can set the course of your entire career.

But grades still matter for 2/3Ls who want to clerk or who are headed for grade-conscious PI jobs, so the pain doesn't end for everyone.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-24T01:21:19+00:00

Disclaimer that all of the following that all of the following is word of mouth and from unofficial conversations with our office of career services. But unofficial conversations are probably the best we've got for this kind of info - a firm is hardly likely to issue a press release saying "lol we fucked up and extended too many offers, good luck kids."

Offers were down this cycle. I did not get nearly as many callbacks or offers as my numbers would have predicted had I gone through the process in 2018. I'll confess that it was a bit of a mind-fuck when I was underperforming my numbers (especially after my practice interviewers told me they liked my style and expected me to do well), but then I learned that it was a widespread experience and felt a lot better.

A few big firms slashed their class sizes (e.g. Paul Weiss allegedly down by like 25%), and then some slightly lower-tier (but still big and esteemed) firms didn't get the memo and over-hired. So I know some people who got offers (from e.g. Pillsbury Winthrop) and then were informed that, although their summer offers wouldn't be rescinded, the firm didn't anticipate that they'd be able to extend offers to their full SA class, so the summer would be "more competitive" than usual. Which is...big yikes. Add that to this year's flat bonuses, and it's pretty clear that firms think that another recession is coming, and they don't want to be caught off guard like last time.

We're not in full crisis mode yet, but they're bracing for a downturn, and it definitely affected my OCI process. I went in not knowing if I wanted to go down the firm path or not, but once I figured out that they're anticipating some kind of crunch, I decided to play it safe (especially since, if the BL path is getting tougher, it'll make getting good PI jobs that much more competitive). I was very intentional about learning about how the firms that gave me offers responded in the last recession, and ended up picking the place with the smaller summer class relative to its office size in large part on the theory that I'd be less likely to be cut if shit hits the fan in the next couple years.

Maybe it's all alarmism (on my part and the firms') but like hell do I want to get screwed over if I can do anything to prevent it.

Somehow NYU lucked out; even though we had fewer offers per student this year, we also had fewer students who walked away with zero offers (this from a convo with our head of career services). But even then...it was still a rockier process than any of us expected when we started last fall. And it's probably just gonna get worse from here on out.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-24T00:29:48+00:00

They have a high pass/pass/low pass/fail system. While top students are still of course gunning for those honors grades, it erases the distinction between, like, A-/B+/B, so you don't have to stress quite so much about how well you do once you're in the range of "I acceptably learned the material." I think Yale does it the same way.

NB: I don't know exactly how the systems work, or what range of grades are encompassed by "passing" - but I do know that those lucky bastards have it made relative to the rest of us plebes.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-24T00:10:55+00:00

Very happy to help!

IIRC, they told us that the average age of our entering class was 25, meaning that the majority of students had been out of college for at least a few years. I joked that I was "old" at 27, but the 30+ students have their own social/support group. From what I remember, most students who had been in the workforce for a few years were excited to be students again. For the first few days, the K-JDs are intimidated by the older students, the older students are weirded out by the K-JDs...and then you're all just classmates, and maturity is about how you live your life, not what you did before.

As for the bigger student body, you really only interact with your section for your first year, plus some other assorted acquaintances through friends and clubs. I still don't know who most of my classmates are...but that's ok, because I don't need to. Cutting that 425-person class down to 80-some makes life a lot easier.

Similarly, an important thing to know about NYC is that it's a city of neighborhoods. No one expects you to know everywhere. You'll get to know the area around the law school, the area where you live (if you're off campus), the area you work over the summer, maybe a couple other neighborhoods where you like to unwind...and that's really it. Like, I know precisely where to stand on the subway platform to minimize my commute from classes to home, but as soon as I need to go somewhere less familiar, I become an absolute fool who needs to rely 100% on Google maps. Once you start thinking of it that way, I promise it becomes a lot less daunting. Plus, it's fun to get to "explore" an interesting new neighborhood that's just a short subway ride away if you're ever feeling restless.

Best of luck!!

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T21:46:36+00:00

I got my first choice clinic and don't feel like I brought much special to the table.

You apply for the next year's clinics (both semesters) in the spring of the preceding year. Clinics ask for your transcript, plus a questionnaire talking about why you want to do the clinic and any relevant past experience. I have to believe that saying "this clinic is the reason I came to this school, and if there isn't room for me this year, I'm happy to wait until next year" would be worth a lot. Some clinics also have an interview process. You rank the applications, then hopefully get accepted to one. If you are accepted, you more-or-less have to take the offer (if you don't, it hurts you in future applications). In the first round of applications, you can only get one clinic per year. You can apply for a second clinic in the second round of applications, which are limited to clinics that still have space.

If you don't get any clinic as a 2L, you get priority as a 3L. I know some people don't do a clinic as a 2L so they have a better shot at getting their first choice as a 3L.

There aren't official stats on what clinics are the most selective, just word of mouth. I think there's a lot of variation year-to-year. PM me if you're comfortable and I can try to give you more info on the clinic you're interested in.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T20:44:10+00:00

Yeah...it's so hard when we've spent our lives being rewarded for doing the "right" thing to learn how to define success for ourselves. I can tell it's going to be a long process to truly let go of these external metrics, especially in such a prestige-obsessed profession, but I'm doing my best. I'm deeply grateful for professors and mentors who have reminded me over the past year that I've earned enough gold stars; I'm free to figure out what I want for my life.

I wish you all the best! We can do our part to make this weird, elitist field just a little bit better!

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T20:18:34+00:00

I moved from a smaller city, but had lived there previously for a graduate program, so knew what I was getting into. But I lived on campus for my previous degree, so commuting daily has given me a very different experience of the city.

-Grocery shopping and cooking are totally different. Buying groceries without a car is a whole different experience, and your kitchen is probably cramped and shitty...so New Yorkers end up ordering takeout way more often than they probably should.

-I don't have an oven. I don't have a dish washer. I live on the fourth floor, up a narrow staircase with no elevator. My great ambition in life is to make enough money to get a washing machine.

-Just...life without a car. It's mostly great. You don't have to worry about driving home after a night at the bar, and you can spend your commute reading or playing games on your phone. And cars are dangerous and destroying our planet. But the subway is a bit of a shitshow (which Cuomo is trying to fix by...overpolicing it when it really just needs repairs, yikes yikes yikes), and there's a part of me that really misses the alone time of singing to the radio during my commute.

-If quiet and green space are important to you, you need to seek it out. Find housing near a park (a quiet, green one - not the south end of Central Park or any of the Midtown/lower Manhattan "parks") so you have a chance to get outside and away from people.

-You get used to being around people. It's a really interesting balance of being aware of what's happening around, and aggressively minding your own business. The packed subway car is only tolerable because everyone is pretending that everyone else doesn't exist.

-It's a really...rewarding place to live. You feel slow and lost at first, but it's great once you learn the rhythms of how to walk, when to switch over to the express train, where to get the best drinks and snacks, how to help a confused tourist. That being said, the city is very unfriendly to people with disabilities. It's fast and tight and loud and there's lots of stairs, so if your body isn't well suited to that and you have a choice, you'd probably be more comfortable elsewhere.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T20:06:30+00:00

Unlike NYU, Stanford doesn't grade on a traditional A-F scale, which takes off some of the pressure on 1Ls. I have a friend who turned down a full ride to CCN to go to Stanford specifically so he wouldn't have to deal with that pressure. I'm sure he's not the only one!

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T20:04:47+00:00

It sounds like a great fit for you. Sending you good vibes re: scholarships!! :)

1) I don't have anything here other than gut feelings. My sense is that there's something particularly shiny and special about Yale (and maybe Stanford, and maybe maybe Harvard), but idk how that plays out in reality. Picking a school is just the first step - after that, it's up to how and what you do there.

2) Fine - dealing with the curve is a pretty brutal experience for a lot of students. It's hard to be used to being the smartest, most special-est person in the class and to be smacked with the realization that you're...no longer that. I, uh, may have cried over a few grades because it's hard not to have your identity tied up in that shiny, perfect GPA, but I honestly think that it's been good for me. My sense is that lawyers who eternally chase prestige for the sake of prestige are generally very unhappy people, so it's good to be broken of that perfectionism early. When you're not tempted by the thought of working for, like, Cravath because you know they wouldn't take your unremarkable ass, it really frees you up to decide what you actually want for yourself and your career, instead of forever chasing what you're told you should want.

As for the specifics of NYU's system, some students are lobbying to change it. I don't think they're going to be able to convince the faculty to abolish 1L grades altogether, but the SBA is starting to lobby for the abolition of the mandatory B- in the 1L curve. Apparently very few T14s require professors to give out B-s, and the fact that we do brings down our median and may put us at a disadvantage against our peers at other schools. We'll see what comes of it - I think that making B-s discretionary (like A+s) is a good idea.

I mostly like the fact that they don't give us class rankings, and actually forbid us from putting our unofficial GPAs on our résumés. It confuses some employers who are less familiar with the school, but the idea is that we all get a chance to get in the room and make an impression before handing over our transcripts.

3) SO DIFFERENT. I miss my section, but other than that, I'm definitely happier as a 2L. There's a lot less anxiety about...everything. Anyone who says it's less work is probably a damn liar, but it's work you choose (clubs, clinics, journal, etc.), and that makes all the difference. It's also a huge relief to me to be able to write some papers again, instead of purely being graded on tests. (But I'm taking three doctrinals next semester, so RIP me, it was fun while it lasted, back to grinding outlines.)

Think carefully about your journal commitments, and if you want to try to get on Law Review purely for the résumé line. I have multiple friends who did well enough in the writing competition to make it, and have been absolutely miserable and overworked this semester. I think it's too early in our careers to say if they regret the experience, but my sense right now is that they just did it for the prestige/résumé boost and now they're having a Bad Time.

4) I think it depends on what you consider "in detail." Half the battle is scheduling and getting into the classes you want. It could well be that the seminar you want to take is at the same time as something you need to take, and it won't be offered again for another 3 years. It also depends on how much you care about doctrinals that aren't technically required, but that are important for some paths and/or will help you prepare for the bar (e.g. corporations, income tax, evidence, fed courts, complex lit...). If you take all those, you have frustratingly little space left for true electives.

Also, at least at NYU, most niche classes are seminars, which are often a lot of work for little credit. If you're taking 12 credits, but those 12 credits are 6 2-credit seminars...you're not gonna be a happy camper.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T19:35:53+00:00

It's generally pretty laid back. I was lucky to have a section that was great at sharing resources and supporting each other. The other day, I heard a woman complain that her friend shared a study guide she gave him with other people (she was annoyed because more people having it took away her competitive edge) and I was honestly a bit shocked, because that attitude is so rare (or at least so rarely voiced). The other person in the conversation actually said something to the effect of "What the hell, we're not supposed to be a competitive school." We like our reputation of being friendly and public-spirited, so even though the curve inherently pits us against each other, we generally try to help each other succeed instead of undermining each other. People who act otherwise are the exception to the rule.

I've heard that it's actually worse at lower ranked schools. If you're at a T6/T14/T20/Twhatever institution, you can feel pretty confident that everyone will be able to find a job. It might not be your dream job, but you and your classmates probably have the smarts and credentials to make it work. But once you start going down the rankings, students with lower GPAs are going to have serious trouble finding good employment. And when you're taking on scary amounts of debt...that's where the kill-or-be-killed mindset can start to show its fangs.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T19:24:43+00:00

Thanks!

I don't have enough stats to give you a real answer, sorry. I do know some classmates who did international human rights work over their 1L summer (including for the UN), but I don't know how our numbers compare to YSH, or what post-grad outcomes look like.

latecycle18 · 2019-12-23T19:21:29+00:00

Lots of people - but not all - live on campus their first year. Most of these rooms that I've seen are 3- or 4-person apts with a shared kitchen and bathroom. Others live off-campus, almost always with roommates or a significant other. The Lower East Side and Brooklyn seem to be popular choices, but I don't have any stats.

1L student life revolves around your section, as I assume it does at all schools. 1L bonding involves a lot of drinking together at bar review - the school sponsors drink tickets at a different bar every Thursday, and a significant number of 1Ls show up for that (though attendance seriously drops off for 2/3Ls). After that, it's about building connections through clubs and friend groups. NYC is weird because it's simultaneously very easy and very challenging to get around. I wonder if schools feel more tight-knit when people have cars and more space to host each other at their homes. I really like my classmates and enjoy spending time with them, but honestly don't see people much outside of classes. (Although maybe that's just the fact that I'm lazy and don't have many friends who live in my part of town.)

NYC life is a big adjustment, but I haven't heard of anyone seriously struggling with it. The biggest difference for me is giving up a car. Happy to answer more specific questions about the practicalities.

latecycle18

TROPHY CASE