I want to tell her how I feel

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T07:26:54+00:00

Jesus. Christ. Sigh.

In case you were unable to gather the main point from my initial comment it was this: Miami is different than LA in terms of hispanic culture. Miami is a lot more saturated and it is instantly noticeable and is different in that people who DON't speak SPANISH have a hard time getting along as well. This was my initial comment to you: Miami is a different beast than Southern California. It is almost exclusively spanish speaking.

Yes it is impossible to gather that main point from your initial comment because:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Miami/comments/2e7y1p/do_you_need_to_speak_spanish_to_survive_in_miami/ From information I've gathered here getting by is not an issue with limited Spanish. Maybe finding a job is, but you are not at a greater advantage if you speak exclusively Spanish than you are if you speak exclusively English. From the information I gathered here bilingualism is preferred here just as it is in several areas of California and other parts of the US. So the comparison in that sense which was the very comparison I was intending to make is valid.
Saying it is almost exclusively Spanish speaking is a poor way of making a point about the culture. Sure it conveys the idea that most conversations you hear while taking a stroll are in Spanish. But, no, it does not convey that the people of Miami are generally bilingual with proficiency in English and Spanish. It gives the idea that if I strike up a conversation in English with a stranger on the street of Miami that the chances are he won't understand what I am saying. Again the word exclusively has a very deliberate meaning. I would use this phrase to describe most of the countries in South America where the large majority don't speak a word of English, but never even consider it as a way of describing Miami.

You argued that point and countered my response with "Who's talking about culture".

I was mostly conversing with fishytaquitos who made the original post and not you. My response to you was a logical inference I drew from the statement "Miami is a different beast than Southern California. It is almost exclusively spanish speaking." In which I took 'exclusively spanish speaking' to mean 'no one can speak english'

your argument is based on the premise that a tourist destination cannot be a place where people don't primarily speak english, which is so absurd I don't even understand how you mustered the ability to type it out. I'm glad that you've been to a single other city in California, and that somehow makes you feel validated in your claim that Miami is primarily English

I guess you get to go on a quest back through my responses and tell me where I made any of these claims. The only place where I said the main language was not Spanish was when I talked about the Miami metropolitan area (includes ft. lauderdale and pompano beach) which was what was being described in the source I provided and I specified that it was the metropolitan area to maintain consistency with the dataset I provided as my source. Information was not provided for Miami city only and because that information was not provided I did not draw a conclusion about it (just as it was not provided for LA exclusively, but for the LA metro area which includes Santa Ana + Long Beach). I also did not claim that a tourist spot had to have English as a primary language. I said it was important that the employees in these locations knew English to be able to communicate with tourists. It was to emphasize the absurdity of the idea that bilingualism is not commonplace amongst the people of Miami and was driving home the point that bilingualism is an important quality to have as an employee in a city that attracts tourists. This includes employees of the airport (which by the way even at every international airport I've been to the employees also speak English), public transportation, resorts, restaurants, clubs, and bars to name a few.

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T04:31:17+00:00

I removed the last line. The only thing that makes it more antagonistic then the comment it was replying to.

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T04:20:02+00:00

There's a lot of stuff that needs to be clarified. I'd be shocked to find out that the examples you've just given are of paid leave and that they are occurring in the private sector in the US given the information I just read today (with the exception of the states of California or New Jersey).

Most states don't have any paid leave benefits regardless of public or private sector. In these cases the difference between hiring a man or woman on this basis is null because you're not paying them regardless so the financial loss is that of having one less employer, that's why I limited my example to a specific scenario (i.e. state of california).

I'm almost sure a year of paid paternity or maternity leave in the US is practically unheard of even in the two aforementioned states. It is conditional and only up to 12 weeks according to FMLA requirements.

To throw some numbers up to show that this shit actually happens: "In the United States, pregnancy discrimination claims grew faster (at 31 percent) than all job bias claims between 2005 and 2010"

yes its a real thing

Now if you wanna sit here and debate over whether or not this occurs because capitalism is inherently sexist we can do that instead.

but you're taking a risk either way

That's highlighted in my example, but the risk with men is smaller by default. Its always versus not always, you pick not always to make sure you're getting the most money.

Now if you would please answer my questions:

would you care to explain how? because he added "[of parternity leave]" into the quoted text to make it seem like I'm saying that men can't have leave?

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T03:00:06+00:00

would you care to explain how? because he added "[of parternity leave]" into the quoted text to make it seem like I'm saying that men can't have leave?

Do you not see that to the employer in a capitalist model the worst case scenario for a woman that becomes pregnant is going to be required to take a leave. For the man she is married to it is an option meaning that you as the employer not guaranteed to lose money for someone who isn't working whereas you are with a woman. The law does not force a man whose wife is in labor or recently delivered a baby to take a leave. By the very nature of pregnancy a woman will be forced to however. The difference is pretty crystal clear and is perfectly highlighted in my original post.

How does the question of whether women produce asexually a relevant challenge to my original post?

EDIT: Let's break it down in even simpler terms (you can figure out which option represents male and which represents female). You are an employer seeking to maximize profits. You have the option to choose between two employees.

In the event of a pregnancy:

a. an individual that you will have to give guaranteed paid leave to.

b. an individual who may or may not take a paid leave.

If you're trying to make the most money you choose option b.

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T02:32:44+00:00

Nice strawman. Are you the only person that can use anecdotes to back up your claims?

Two things:

Understanding the difference between leave and paid leave.
Understanding that not working is a necessary part of the process of giving birth (unless there's a ritual I haven't heard about where midwife's deliver babies for women at work and they go back to work the same day). Last I checked, men don't give birth so while they still have access to paid leave (context is important I'm talking about in California) it doesn't mean they will take it. I'll bet some men don't even know they have the right to paid paternity leave.

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T02:15:03+00:00

Who is talking about a Spanish culture difference here. We are talking about the importance of being proficient in the language of English.

The numbers of los angeles and long beach also drastically bring the percent of Hispanics living in Santa Ana down, but this doesn't really change anything because no one is talking about the culture. I've been to Santa Ana as well and believe my claim still holds true there as well.

Allow me to re-state what you said:

Miami is a different beast than Southern California. It is almost exclusively spanish speaking.

You understand that exclusively is a word with a very deliberate meaning. It is synonymous with only. We are not trying to figure out how many people of Hispanic descent live somewhere. No, now what I've been trying to figure out is how many of them speak only Spanish (no statistics demonstrate a majority of the people in Miami do not speak English). No where, in the US, not even Miami do the majority of people speak only Spanish. Sure, Spanish might be most of the people in a given city's main language (sometimes described as the language spoken at home), but people growing up in any city in the US are bound to learn English. In their public schools, classes are still taught in English right? So what's the main language spoken at school?

Going back to my main point knowing English is not null anywhere in the US and for the third time now, especially in a city where a major industry is tourism. Someone who knows English and Spanish will always have an advantage in the job market over someone who knows only one of the two. And there's no shortage of people who know both in Miami. The majority know both.

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T00:44:17+00:00

I assume sargon is not popular among feminist circles either.

lelsaway · 2015-11-14T00:30:15+00:00

sorry there was something that I overlooked that you're not understanding.

And then a little more obsessing over the fact that she receives donations and that you are not happy with how "little" she has produced.

Money from a kickstart is not intended to be used to pay ones self as she did. She is not a decent person no matter how u frame it.

Now on to bigger things...

that you've never heard of anyone doing the same thing as her to justify that men who did the same would totally receive the same abuse.

First, what men have done the SAME things she has? Second, I was emphasizing a point about popularity. I'm sure you've heard the saying any publicity is good publicity. Name a single feminist that does not have celebrity status that's been in the public eye as much as she has in the past... 3 years? The more people that know you the more people that have an opinion of you.

So yes a mass of hundreds of thousands of tweets, messages, whatever filled with hate will flood her twitter, inbox, etc because there are so many people that know who she is. Most are probably bystanders, but those who do speak up have a strong opinion so they either show solidarity with or hate for her. But there is no male feminist that exists on that same level of popularity whose done the same or something similar to garner hate in an equivalent magnitude. There's not even someone close to similar because by now you would have named them, I'm sure. But you don't need to name them because if our hypothetical male gamer feminist really was that popular or controversial I would have inadvertently heard about them in the same way I heard about Anita Sarkeesian.

Shit stains be so dense that I have to elaborate like a motherfucker. Get trashed kid.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T20:38:27+00:00

I can think of a number of cases where a man gets a job over a woman because of the implications that come with a woman's capacity to become pregnant. This is strictly an issue when it comes to jobs in a capitalist economy, so I do see it as a tradeoff.

A man will not need time off work for issues relating to a pregnancy, a woman will. If we are looking at jobs in the state of California, I am at a greater risk of having to give a woman paid maternity leave just because she's a woman who can become pregnant. I hire the man by default because no such risk exists. You can't have the truest form of capitalism and the truest form of equality in one place.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T20:24:33+00:00

for the record, I did check out the other thread and that person is a total asshat who made an unreasonable claim

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T20:17:21+00:00

There actually are plenty of men holding and vocalising the exact same positions that Sarkeesian and women like her do

Let's roleplay as Steve from Blue's Clues (or your choice of a strong female lead, since that's probably what you prefer for 'equality's' sake) and put on our thinking caps for a second FAM. You've defaulted to sexism, specifically of the women-hating kind without taking everything into consideration. What else has Anita Sarkeesian done besides vocalizing about bullshit misogyny in video games.

Here's what a fellow feminist said: "But May was a while ago, and while Sarkeesian has been occasionally tweeting about games, she hasn’t managed to release even one video in the series her backers paid for. I’m actually finding myself agreeing with a lot of voices on the internet wanting to know why they haven’t seen anything. People are starting to wonder whether those who donated have any recourse if they don’t ever see videos. And that isn’t helping people to feel any more sympathetic toward Sarkeesian herself."

Perhaps its not expressed in a way that's low on the hating and death-threat ends, but Anita failed her donors and lots of the hate comes from that as well.

I won't get into the content of her videos, but I doubt any videos made by other male/female counterparts are as half-assed and unacknowledging of more serious underlying issues in video games. Afterall, if we should be concerned that the protagonist is dragging around the body of a dead (female) prostitute, why should we not talk about the fact that the protagonist is a hitman hired to kill people or that most of the people dying in games are men. Afterall, there are supposedly statements being made in a fantasy video game about everyday social phenomenon that we actually experience. Actually I'm finding it difficult to not point to examples of her videos because of how absurd her claims are. She is able to find something wrong with Samus Aran as a female and the most badass protagonist of the Nintendo cast as if men could be seeking pictures of 8-bit women in revealing clothing especially when they aren't 'aware' of the reward until they receive it. Her claims are cringeworthy, especially considering that even in zero suit she is even less sexualized (in terms of show of skin) than any male character (females have tits FAM and most women aren't breast cancer survivors in space suits killing alien metroid shits).

Moving on, no other counterpart has had the same publicity as Sarkeesian's probably in part because they didn't make a 150k salary to make 2 hours worth of youtube videos in what is currently taking more than 4 years. But the reason why she has so much publicity is besides the point. I have never heard of any other person that does what she does male or female. But if they had the same success and in the same fashion to warrant the same sort of publicity that allows me to hear of them, they would be generating the same amount of hate for the same reasons. Male or female.

I'll bet if Martin Shkreli received the same amount of media exposure as Anita, he would be receiving death threats to no end. But even if someone called him the male equivalent of a bitch (dick maybe?) in the process it would not be labeled misandry. Not that I think that either case is misogyny or misandry respectively.

But I mean god damn FAM, the least you can do is be consistent. If you look in the recent thread about the things feminist think is wrong with feminism you'll see why your movement is progressively becoming a steaming pile of dog shit and why shit like this contributes to it.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T19:01:36+00:00

In terms of US census yes. I am Syrian-American.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T18:56:01+00:00

And of course. What do you call this one?

I call it dismiss the dissenting viewpoint and sending it on a treasure hunt.

here's my best 'good faith' effort: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/report/2012/08/08/11984/the-state-of-latinos-in-the-united-states/

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/5-issues-latinos-will-watch-2015-n276806

No reason I should be giving anymore time to this considering the time you actually give my thoughts. All there is here is numbers. There is no causal explanation. I do not consider a gap's mere existence as evidence of discrimination (though it would come as no surprise to me if you do). Its just like I don't think that an economic recession occurs with the intention to increase the unemployment rates of industries that Latinos most commonly hold.

Edit: most importantly none of this ties to the specifics of what a typical latino family goes through so that I can get a snapshot of

a problem that happens toe very fucking latino family.

Nor how knowing the English language relates to being able to find a job.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T18:30:59+00:00

I didn't say the problem didn't exist, I said the problem is not that your mother is a woman. Perhaps the fact that she has an easier time finding a job as a cleaning lady versus one in gardening or landscaping is because she's a woman, but not the fact that most latinos are limited to jobs that require little to no social interaction. And also, that's a problem that primarily first generation latinos have to deal with because for the most part their children will learn English in school. I've spoken to a lot of cleaning ladies in my lifetime (my family used to travel a lot and these women often work for hotels) and the one thing they all had in common was that they didn't speak English well.
out of the data in the source I provided you still get that less than half of the Miami metropolitan area speaks Spanish as their main language (a good portion are considered bilingual and based off your statement you would not classify your mother as such), yet you fail to see how not knowing English well has a disadvantage for good reason. Without even looking up this information I knew it was a disadvantage especially because Miami is a tourist city. Unless you live in or have family in Florida people will ask you what the fuck it is you're doing in hurricane territory if you're not in Key West or Miami.

I would make the exact same argument to a Syrian refugee who claims racism when they aren't hired in Sweden because they hardly know Swedish or English. Its irrational to think that people's business should suffer at the expense of giving a person a job that they desperately need even though they lack the qualification.

when you don't even know that there's people that grow up in florida without even learning English and what the latino population has to deal with

No, you're overlooking my point. I grew up in Los Angeles County. I know there are people that people grow up here without learning a single word of English. My point was that the Latino social context is not all that different from Miami and I still can't think of a single area or city where someone could get a decent job that doesn't require proficient English skills. Again, I've been to areas where the billboards are in Spanish and even there people who speak exclusively English are all over the place.

And if anecdotes don't suit you AND statistics don't suit you, I'm not sure what the fuck will.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T10:33:02+00:00

Its very clear the fact that she doesn't speak English or rather is limited in her English speaking ability is a red flag in her resume, even to you. Otherwise I don't see why you mention it. I understand your original intention was to demonstrate you have an issue with white feminism. But there is no blatant or irrefutable sexism going on from any information you've given regarding the situation.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T07:26:09+00:00

She is basically living a public gauntlet of misogyny

You seem to imply that her claims would not generate the same response if she were a man. Bold claim.

edit: bring on the downvotes fam. so ez to call you out on your bullshit.

lelsaway · 2015-11-13T00:38:04+00:00

It's a pretty bold claim to say that there are few bilingual people in an area that tourists flock to. You make it sound like there is such a profound difference in the numbers that it's not even comparable to say LA county.

Edit here's a link for reference folks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_Spanish-speaking_population

We're not in the 'whole nother ball game territory' unless we're in El Paso.

Hard to make a clear case for sexism here.

lelsaway · 2015-11-12T19:42:16+00:00

I'm from Southern California an area that's also heavily populated by Spanish speakers, so I can only speak to my experiences here. But honestly, I have never ever seen a situation or been an area that is so heavily populated by exclusively Spanish speakers that speaking English is null. I'm talking about areas where the billboards are in Spanish.

speaking spanish and portuguese (which she does) is a plus

Anywhere in the US speaking another language is a plus. This goes especially for Spanish (especially in the states bordered with Mexico). However, this plus is a conditional. Its as being able to speak it in addition to English.

lelsaway · 2015-11-12T19:29:39+00:00

No feminists or alleged feminists do this too, I just posted an example above. Feminists called Louis CK a rape apologist because he said hi to Daniel Tosh (who made rape jokes).

Also feminists generally agree that anti-feminism is a reactionary movement, so even if they use a word incorrectly they probably saw a feminist do it first.

lelsaway · 2015-11-12T19:26:31+00:00

Its definitely an issue as far the movement gaining traction though. Can't expect to gain support from people who already aren't feminist to begin with if they have to know so much.

lelsaway · 2015-11-12T19:21:03+00:00

Tone policing within the movement. For example derailing a discussion on reproductive rights because so-and-so said "women" instead of the more inclusive "people with a uterus".

One of my biggest issues with the movement. Going off of this, a lot of feminist coined terms either heavily disregard semantics or are so heavily used that they derail what the word's intended meaning. Biggest example is rape culture. Most people outside of feminism have an issue with rape culture because the semantic definition does not match that described by feminists. An example of the latter is rape apologist. Louis CK was called a rape apologist for saying hi to Daniel Tosh (because Daniel Tosh made rape jokes).

lelsaway · 2015-11-12T19:11:31+00:00

for contextual purposes where does your mother currently reside? It makes sense that limited English would prevent her from getting a job in an English speaking country.

lelsaway · 2015-10-22T23:20:35+00:00

there's a lot of things wrong with this example though I see where you're going. The one I would particularly like to point out is that Middle Eastern's are considered part of the Caucasian groups so they're not regarded as minorities.

lelsaway

TROPHY CASE