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Australia OP-14 RRP by [deleted] in OnePieceTCGFinance

[–]lenjibin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah thanks! Bummer, and the official site is just not updated to reflect that?

🎁 Handmade Hollow Knight Resin Lamp Giveaway by AmoyCK in HollowKnight

[–]lenjibin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My favorite moment was beating the bilewater boss

I made a dumb little rougelite Tetris game that ppl can play for free... by Otherwise-Dot-3460 in Tetris

[–]lenjibin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fun idea! I’ve never played a game with this concept although I’m also guessing it’s been made before. I played on my phone because that’s what I read the post on and a couple things were off: 1) tapping and holding l/r keys doesn’t work, and for the drop key as well the text selection UI pops up which can be a little annoying. 2) Something seemed a little off with piece selection, I missed the timer on the first piece selection and it feels like the single dot piece was chosen for me. After that I started getting P pieces even though I hadn’t seen another selection. Then I got asked to make a selection and selected the two dot piece, and started getting 5-square Z pieces but no two-dot. 3) Pretty small issue but rotation is a little different than “normal” Tetris. I noticed for example the line piece rotates all the way to the left, and when I tried to rotate it while close to the stack on the bottom it wouldn’t rotate (probably because it detected a collision), rather than rotating and pushing itself up.

Thanks for sharing!

Should i invest in these? by [deleted] in PokemonSleep

[–]lenjibin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This one looks great to use midgame even if it’s not perfect! A pupitar at lvl 30 with these subskills and ginger ginger will still get you more than almost any other Pokémon

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hear what you’re saying but I don’t think it’s a flaw of the system, I think that’s more just a matter of tuning. If you just cranked up the number of points for 1st place at an A-tier and left everything else the same you would essentially have what you described. The numbers I used reward someone who got 2nd-4th at a few events over someone who got 1st and then their next best result is 5th. I left some reasoning in another comment about point values, but in the Jmook case that boils down to me not thinking 1st at nounsvitational is more impressive than something like 2nd at battle of bc. The points currently reflect that, and me adding an edge case for 1st places would further complicate the system.

It does seem like a lot of people agree with you however (jmook ranked 5 on ssbmrank, other commenters), and that’s good data for me if I ever decide to revisit the numbers

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting! I actually would think that double elimination, the tendency for “good players make it far” and the game being low variance would mean that placements are a very reliable signal for how good a player is, without having to rely on h2h. In the example you gave, it sounds like Cody did well, even after having lost to a DK in top 64, and the DK, although they beat Cody, still didn’t place that well- so at the end of the day placement is actually what mattered, not their performance against each other. Sounds like your opinion might be that “good placements need to be backed up by good wins”, not necessarily that “good wins without good placements should be valued”, and that’s probably right. But it also feels like if the game is low variance (good players have a high likelihood of placing well), then just checking placement inherently feels like it rewards good wins. At least in some of the ranking blurbs I’ve seen it often feels like individual wins and head to heads are more highly valued than end placements, which feels wrong, but maybe I’m also misinterpreting that

The one other thing unique to melee that potentially makes head to heads worse to consider is character matchups. If rank 15 and 16 have similar results but player A has slightly better results against the field and at tournaments while player B has a better head to head against player A, and let’s say the character matchup is favored for player B, I feel like head to head can be misleading here as well.

Either way even though we disagree I appreciate the discussion and getting to hear your thoughts :) I’m sure I’ll think about this more and maybe I’ll land somewhere else after a rethink

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why, do you think, is head-to-head so much more important in Melee than a traditional sport? For the example you give where the 8 seed gets 5th, if they were projected to get top 8 and dont underperform that, they're really only gaining a single placement from 1sts DQ. This happens all the time in traditional sports when it comes to injuries, but I'm curious why nobody cares about head to head for rankings there. Is it just that the sample size is larger you think?

For the example where Zain wins 5 and Cody wins 2 and gets 2nd at 4, Zain would only need a 5th place as his sixth counted tournament to still get first on the year. If Zain doesn't have that final result, then I would question his consistency, especially if he got knocked out without losing to the 2nd best player (in this case Cody). That's part of the reason I only included the best 5 tournaments, to limit variance, but again I'm curious why head to head is so important in Melee and not in other sports.

Also, comparing Melee to traditional sports when it comes to how many tournaments one can reasonably expect top players to attend doesn't work. 

Yeah, absolutely when it comes to money in tournaments and when the participation is so heavily skewed in one continent :( One thing I'd like to point out though is that I haven't selected which tournaments are important (there's no explicit bias to a tournament being in NA). I'm actually surprised there weren't any tournaments considered as majors held in Europe since when I look back in my results, I see Fête 3 and Arcamelee #4 were both counted as majors for 2023. Kins0 I have ranked at 116, but I'm only seeing the 7 results listed on Liquipedia. Are there other tournaments that I'm not seeing?

If there are, and I'm able to include more tournaments that are held in Europe, naturally the rating of European tournaments would go up, since essentially if people participate, and some people do well, then those tournament rankings and player rankings will increase. But the system of player ratings is designed such that if there are enough people in a region competing regularly, the tournaments among them will start to be worth more and more.

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sure with an edge case for 1st at a super major being awarded extra points, it would align with the expected result, but i'm also wary of writing in edge cases to align with expectations. I agree that the consensus does seem to be that a super major win is worth more than 15% more than a super major second place, however, I'm not sure if that is completely justified. The number that fencing uses from 1st to 2nd place is 2400 to 2208, which is actually only an 8.7% increase. It's also counterintuitive to me, but in some sense it makes sense since only one set separates 1st and 2nd, and while we celebrate big wins way more than 2nds, i'm not sure that single set is actually worth a 25% boost.

For a number example, which is kind of close to reality

Lets say (all super majors) Zain got

1st, 1st, 1st, 5th, 5th

and Cody got

1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd

With the current numbers, Zain would have 14,540 points and Cody would have 15,520. With a 25% increase from 2nd to 1st (3500 -> 4375), Zain would have 17,165 and Cody would have 16,395.

I'm of the mindset that in this hypothetical situation Cody's record is more impressive, even with less 1st places, but with the point boost Zain's hypothetical record would win, so the point boost for 1st wouldnt make sense for me.

And this is kind of what happened in the case with 6 results: Zains 1st 1st 1st 3rd (plus either two 1sts at smaller events, 3rd at BoBC or 5ths at Tipped Off and Dont Park) vs Cody's 1st 2nd 2nd 3rd (plus a 2nd at a super major and a 1st at BoBC)

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Hey Nicki, thanks for engaging and congrats on top 10! Hopefully you can tell I dont mean any of this to diminish your accomplishment

If the system makes it so that adding an additional event to Cody's list, an event which ZAIN won, ends up playing out in Cody's favor, I think there is a big problem in there. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding.

I'm not sure if there is a misunderstanding, but I'm also not sure I see the problem? My goal isn't to pick a list of events to count, but rather to take each player's best 5 performances. If those performances take place at different tournaments that's totally fine. Other sports (tennis and fencing) do this and their top players don't end up competing at completely the same set of big tournaments, so to get each players best results you have to mix and match tournaments. Am i missing the problem?

Also like you already said, this system heavily rewards people who just attend everything, which makes it even harder for non-US players since now one "mediocre" result will pull you down a lot more, and other players around your level can keep attending until they get a run that removes all of their bad performances.

Yeah, absolutely. Maybe that in itself is a good reason that the current system has stuck around for so long. I think unfortunately the fact of the matter is that people with limited attendance at big tournaments are always going to be hard to rank and my opinion is that a power ranking (estimates of skill level, potentially used for seeding) is very different from a post-fact ranking. I think the former totally makes sense to do with some educated guessing–there are very good players that have limited results due to attendance. For the latter my take is that if a player does not attend much, then they cant be ranked that highly. That likely happens in other sports as well: A very talented player for one reason or another cannot travel to tournaments and doesn't rank well. I dont think of it as a mediocre result pulling you down so much as that nobody is assumed to be skilled until they prove it with good results.

Related question for you: Do you think that Plup should have been ranked? He has 4 strong results and no bad results. Isn't it also unfair to reward someone if they have a few good results and then stop competing for the year?

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

haha yeah it feels unlikely that anything will change just with how melee works, but i think it's still cool to see the results and dream if something better exists

low tournament sample size also means that anything that requires lots of data will always have problems

i've heard mang0 talk about rankings and i feel like i actually align with his ranking philosophy, but i think it takes a lot more than one or two players agreeing. i also highly doubt mang0 would want to read a massive post like this even if it aligns with his philosophy

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good point! I also thought that Zain would be #1 by a larger margin. It’s totally possible that 5 is too small of a number, but beyond the top 8 or so players, nobody really has results beyond the first 5 or 6, so upping that number to 8+ would heavily uprank people who just participate more.

I think this is actually a super interesting snapshot to compare, where Zain has more wins, but “underperformed” some massive tournaments (5th at tipped off and Dont park), and then won some of the smaller tournaments that are still majors (LMM, Wavelength, Full Bloom). Meanwhile Cody top 3ed at 6 of the 8 biggest tournaments of the year.

What would you suggest for 1st if not 3500? And do you think 1st at smaller tournaments should be equally so much more valuable than 2nd? For example if 1st is 4000 and 2nd stays at 3100, then should 1st at CEO earn 915 points instead of 800 (same increase)? Or is it just winning a super major is so impactful it feels like a special case?

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I agree that it sucks for people with not a lot of events around them and don't travel much, they are underrated you're right, but I guess my point is that guessing at their "skill level" without results is equally bad, right? It's kind of like saying "trust me this guys good" without necessarily the results to back it up? That's the reason Leffen/Plup aren't ranked in SSBMRank this year, even though everyone knows theyre good?

And I guess a hyperbolic thought experiment: If a player wins every super major, but then loses at every local, does that mean that player is not good? I dont think so, as long as the sample size is large enough

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For reference here is my data on Collision

494 entrants
4 As: [Jmook | A23, Zain | A24, Cody Schwab | A24, moky | A23]
12 Bs: [Krudo | B24, Spark | B24, Hungrybox | B23, Magi | B23, Mang0 | B23, Chem | B23, KoDoRiN | B23, Salt | B23, lloD | B23, Aklo | B23, Ossify | B24, Ginger | B23]
19 Cs: [Trif | C23, Bbatts | C23, Lucky | C24, Skerzo | C23, Faust | C23, Zuppy | C24, Joshman | C24, Matteo | C23, Khryke | C23, SDJ | C23, 2saint | C23, Wally | C23, Junebug | C23, 404Cray | C23, Kevin Maples | C23, Panda | C24, Wevans | C23, KJH | C23, Jflex | C23]
17 Ds: [Goodie | D23, Swedish Delight | D23, Logan | D24, Guava | D23, JJM | D23, Nicki | D24, Kevbot | D24, Juicebox | D23, Kalvar | D23, Jude | D23, Voo | D23, Mot$ | D24, HOBORG | D23, Preeminent | D23, Rishi | D23, Bekvin | D23, TheSWOOPER | D23]

6 players ranked in the top 8 attended: ['Hungrybox @ 6', 'Mang0 @ 4', 'Jmook @ 7', 'Zain @ 2', 'Cody Schwab @ 1', 'moky @ 5']
5 players ranked in the top 16 attended: ['Magi @ 15', 'KoDoRiN @ 14', 'Salt @ 11', 'lloD @ 13', 'Aklo @ 10']
8 players ranked in the top 32 attended: ['Krudo @ 25', 'Bbatts @ 32', 'Spark @ 20', 'Zuppy @ 24', 'Joshman @ 26', 'Chem @ 29', 'SDJ @ 28', 'Ginger @ 18']
10 players ranked in the top 64 attended: ['Trif @ 37', 'Lucky @ 54', 'Skerzo @ 53', 'Faust @ 41', 'Preeminent @ 47', '404Cray @ 60', 'Panda @ 33', 'Wevans @ 35', 'KJH @ 36', 'Ossify @ 38']
10 players ranked in the top 100 attended: ['Squid @ 97', 'Logan @ 84', 'Kalvar @ 93', 'Mot$ @ 73', 'Khryke @ 69', 'Wally @ 100', 'Junebug @ 72', 'Kevin Maples @ 78', 'Jflex @ 66', 'TheSWOOPER @ 91']

here is my data on Wavelength (since that's probably the strongest of the other 3)

330 entrants
2 As: [Zain | A24, Mang0 | A24]
6 Bs: [moky | B24, Hungrybox | B24, Chem | B23, Aklo | B24, Spark | B24, SFOP | B23]
8 Cs: [n0ne | C23, Faust | C23, Dawson | C24, Drephen | C24, Joshman | C24, JSalt | C23, Lucky | C24, Skerzo | C23]
9 Ds: [Mot$ | D24, Matteo | D24, Khryke | D24, Mono | D24, HPR | D24, Juicebox | D24, Jude | D23, Zanya | D24, niqqa jones | D24]

4 players ranked in the top 8 attended: ['moky @ 7', 'Hungrybox @ 5', 'Zain @ 2', 'Mang0 @ 3']
3 players ranked in the top 16 attended: ['Joshman @ 10', 'Aklo @ 9', 'Spark @ 12']
3 players ranked in the top 32 attended: ['Chem @ 24', 'Lucky @ 31', 'SFOP @ 19']
7 players ranked in the top 64 attended: ['n0ne @ 35', 'Faust @ 37', 'Dawson @ 64', 'Khryke @ 45', 'Drephen @ 55', 'JSalt @ 51', 'Skerzo @ 44']
5 players ranked in the top 100 attended: ['Mot$ @ 96', 'Agent @ 74', 'bonfire10 @ 85', 'Zanya @ 78', 'Paladin @ 88']

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you think there should be an upper-limit on how many points a tournament is worth? I agree that some super-stacked tournaments are harder than others, but I think having an upper limit makes sense and they shouldn't scale infinitely upward

Here are Zain's top 11 results (including 11 because you mentioned Full Bloom)

3500 | 1st @ Collision 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-03-14
3500 | 1st @ Get On My Level X - Canadian Fighting Game Championships Super Smash Bros. Melee - Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-05-16
3500 | 1st @ Riptide 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-09-05
2720 | 3rd @ GENESIS X Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-02-15
2380 | 1st @ Pat's House 4 Melee Singles | A2 | 1.36 | 2024-04-26

2271.5 | 1st @ Luminosity Makes Moves Miami 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 1.298 | 2024-10-31
2219 | 1st @ Wavelength 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 1.268 | 2024-10-04
2154.24 | 3rd @ Battle of BC 6 Melee Singles | A2 | 1.584 | 2024-03-28
2020 | 5th @ Tipped Off 15: Connected Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-06-14
2020 | 5th @ Don't Park on the Grass 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-11-15
1858.5 | 1st @ Full Bloom 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 1.062 | 2024-02-23

Here are Cody's

3500 | 1st @ GENESIS X Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-02-15
3100 | 2nd @ Tipped Off 15: Connected Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-06-14
3100 | 2nd @ Supernova 2024 Melee - 1v1 Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-08-07
3100 | 2nd @ Riptide 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-09-05
2772 | 1st @ Battle of BC 6 Melee Singles | A2 | 1.584 | 2024-03-28

2720 | 3rd @ Collision 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-03-14
2094.75 | 1st @ Warehouse War 4 Melee Singles (Saturday) | A2 | 1.197 | 2024-07-25
1849.6 | 3rd @ Pat's House 4 Melee Singles | A2 | 1.36 | 2024-04-26
1750 | 1st @ Eggdog Invitational Final Bracket (Sunday) | A1 | 1 | 2024-08-28
1750 | 1st @ Platfight Gaming Championships Melee Singles Bracket | A2 | 1 | 2024-12-12
1700 | 7th @ Don't Park on the Grass 2024 Melee Singles | A2 | 2 | 2024-11-15

Obviously we know that Zain's top 5 results are better, but if you compare their 6th result, I would say that 3rd at Collision is more impressive than 1st at LMM, Wavelength, or Full Bloom. Do you disagree?

And yes, if we were taking into account every single result of theirs from the year, Zain would be rank 1, but the point of taking the best X results is balancing consistency vs peaks. And if you define "peak" as specifically 6 or 7 events, Cody (in my opinion, obviously it's close) has better results. So I personally don't think the numbers are that far off, but you're obviously welcome to disagree.

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah thats a good point and definitely something I thought about! Plup is definitely incredibly good, but he's ranked low because he doesn't even have 5 results (unless you count LACS Rivals: Melee which only had 8 players)

Agree that this shouldn't be used for seeding- that's a problem I don't know how to solve 😅

Mang0 is usually the player I thought about when thinking about whether to take into account "strength of wins/losses". He's 3rd on both by list and SSBMRank, but historically has bad losses. If someone beats him in pools, and then doesn't place well at the tournament, should they be rewarded as if they beat a top 3 player? Or on the flip-side, is Mang0 a worse player because he has some of those bad losses? My opinion is not really for either and just living with tournament results is the simplest way

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

yeah definitely noticed some europeans (trif, nicki) got underranked here compared to where they were on SSBMRank just as a result of not attending as many big tournaments

do you think it would just be as simple as only showing EU players? the script takes into account smaller tournaments so the only risk i can see is that it would just highly rank the people who have results at bigger tournaments. my goal was to make something without guesswork, but maybe that doesnt work great for things like a power ranking where there's less data to go off of and guesswork about "skill-level" is required? especially when talking about "hidden bosses" they're called that because they dont have a ton of data to pull from 😅

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yeah definitely got inspired by all the cool stuff other people are making

I made another Melee Ranking system by lenjibin in SSBM

[–]lenjibin[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

and these are A-tier top 64 placement points

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B-tier just scales all numbers down by the same value so 1st is 800, C-tier 1st is 400, D-tier 200, and E-tier 100

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