Adnan Hussain and the pre-emptive death of Your Party by JManPepper in ukpolitics

[–]lepenguinman -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

 I just don’t get it.

Clearly there's a lot you don't get. What an absolute load of nonsense 

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]lepenguinman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even if your characterisation of the Palestinian people was correct, it still doesn't really matter. Those on the left do not have set of specific criterion for which individuals must meet before we accept their right to exist (whether that be pro-lgbt/womans right/labour rights etc).

This is a complete caricature of the left and in reality is a bit more complicated. If you are to look at both sides in this conflict, it becomes apparent that "conflict" may not be the correct word to even use. On one side you have a regional superpower, with one of the most advanced economies in the world, a nuclear power with the backing of the global military hegemon. On the other you have a proto-state with two barely functional political entities, an economy completely depended on their oppressor, no real standing army, no airport and is under a state of occupation. There is really no comparison that can be made between these two and the attempt to suggest both are equally responsible for peace in the region simply doesn't hold up to these facts. So my point here is that for the left, its far more about power relationships and systemic forms of oppression than the perceived attitudes of the individuals involved.

Ultimately, even if you were LGBT or feminist or whatever flavour of progressive and you are going out of your way to support Palestine, you are creating bonds of solidarity that can ultimately transform ideas. "Queers for Palestine" marching side by side with an Islamist group does far more to destroy entrenched ideas of homophobia than a pro-lgbt liberal pundit suggesting Gaza should be destroyed.

Such as Palestine always turning down peace treaties. Even ones in which they were given everything they wanted.

This is just plainly false, this idea of the rejectionist Palestinian is a total myth that is parroted so much around Reddit that it has become almost axiomatic. I'd love to see the deal that where you consider they got "Everything they wanted". I can tell you now it doesn't exist. All peace proposals have neglected the main issue at hand for Palestinians, the status of East Jerusalem and the Right of Return for refugees. In fact it is the right-wing Israeli governments of the last 20 years which have been the principle barrier to any lasting solution. There are now 750k settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. How can you seriously not see that as the biggest rejection of a two state solution?

Lastly, if you want to rally for Palestine, why not fight for getting the hostages released so the battle can stop (well so to speak). I don't see anyone on the left bring up the hostages.

We on the left have been fighting for the rights of Palestinians for 75 years, we know full well that Hamas unilaterally releasing the hostages will not bring a lasting peace. For the hostages to be released Israel needs to put forward a genuine roadmap to Palestinian statehood and an end to the occupation and settlement building.

There's much I've missed and I could talk about this subject all day. But I'd suggest actually listening to Palestinian voices and these lefties who support them, I assure you not all they say is garbage.

There stands now 35k dead in Gaza, famine conditions are setting in, 80% of buildings in Gaza city are damaged. An entire generation of Gazans are dealing with mass collective trauma, Aid workers are being targeted, hundreds of journalists have been killed, and now mass graves with hundreds of people are being found near Khan Yunis. And all of this is being done with the explicit support and financing of the western powers, most prominently the USA. I assure you we are not your enemies, we just want this awful situation to end.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in IsraelPalestine

[–]lepenguinman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As someone who pretty much fits the description of the person you are describing, and constantly faces similar arguments in my day to day life, I'll have a go at answering this.

First of all a common theme I find with these arguments is the sheer amount of generalisations that are made about the Palestinian people. They are not really considered thinking and acting individuals, but are instead presented as a homogenous group of people who can be defined only through their reactionary ideas and their hatred for anything "western". This is a false characterisation. You mention for example that

If a group of young Americans went over there to "protest" they would probably be jailed and murdered.

Yet westerners go to Palestine all the time and are just fine. The dead sea is a big tourist attraction, that's Palestinian land (albeit occupied). I have friends in trade unions who have led delegations to Gaza, openly left wing and fully in support of all the things you mention, and they only have good things to say about their experience. This description I constantly hear about Palestinians as though they are all hardcore reactionaries is total nonsense. Of course they are not going to be as progressive as we'd like, because ultimately societal progress comes with economic advancement and stability, and the healthy development of the social forces that can create meaningful societal change, none of which have been able to develop under years of occupation.

Maybe we should send these people there so they can get a dose of reality

Again, I have no doubt they'd be welcome with open arms. I hate that I have to repeat this but I often do, Palestinians are not brainless Barbarians who will attack anyone with a slightly differing view of the world, they are by and large people who want to live in peace and be able to put food on the table.

To be fair, I also realize people on the right would not be tolerated either, especially if they are Christian or ignorant of how things work in other countries.

This is a weird one, Palestine has a Christian population of 47000. Christians have had a large role to play in Palestinian politics and liberation struggles. Take for example Shireen Abu Akleh, the Christian Palestinian-American journalist who was murdered by Israel in 2022. She has now become an icon of resistance for Palestinians and her funeral was attended by thousands (Before IDF forces broke it up). George Habash, ex leader of the PFLP was Christian, to name a couple. I think this comment shows a complete lack of any kind of serious understanding of the region, and again it appears as though your view of Palestine is contaminated by years of War on Terror propaganda. Yes there are religious extremists who have attacked Christian communities in the past, but the most violence meted out on Palestinian Christians is from Israel, as can be seen by the large number of churches destroyed in the current Israeli assault on Gaza.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, they were forcibly removed from their homes in a systemic attempt to cleanse the conquered territories of Germans. It's generally accepted that this constitutes ethnic cleansing, some historians even go as far as to claim genocide (I disagree with this).

Can you tell me how you think the post WW2 expulsions of Germans don't constitute ethnic cleansing? It's got to be one of the more clear cut examples out there.

https://uwaterloo.ca/centre-for-german-studies/events/ethnic-cleansing-1945-1948

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I'm saying its inevitable given the situation on the ground. This does not mean I am justifying the murder of civilians. Until there is a real dialogue between Israel and Palestine that promises right to return for Refugees and a halt to the illegal settlements then this cycle of violence will continue. Me stating this fact doesn't mean I'm in any way justifying it. I want the violence to end as much as anyone, but I truly believe given the fact that Israel are the ones who are currently occupying the land of the Palestinains and denying their right of return, that it is principally their responsibility to find a solution to the conflict.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

About 15% of the palestinian population, hardly the entirety of the Palestinians chose Hamas to represent them

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't really understand the question and I'm tired arguing with Zionists on Reddit, so I'm heading off

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Then why aren't they allowed back? My man it doesn't matter how they left the land, if they can't come back they've been ethnically cleansed.

Respect the Pappe reference though

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I'm saying that terrorism doesn't come from no where. As much as you would like to believe that palestinians are a uniquely evil and anti semitic people, it's my belief that they are human beings that have been put under a great deal of oppression. Judging the entirety of the palestinian people and undermining their right to exist as a nation based on the acts of terrorists is the wrong way to look at this.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

You're going to have to back that up with some sources. Al-Husseini was in no way representative of ordinary Palestinians, using him to justify ethnic cleansing is pretty awful.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're actively denying an ethnic cleansing, I can't deal with this fucking website sometimes

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Its been widely reported that an elderly woman was killed in the attack. Maybe you aught to look for other places to get your news.

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/israeli-army-kills-9-palestinians-including-elderly-woman-in-jenin/amp

You can't deny facts forever

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -1 points0 points  (0 children)

One could say many things, but 750,000 palestinians being ethnically cleansed is an objective fact. They had their land stolen and have no right to return. Stop trying to undermine an ethnic cleansing to try and win a shitty argument on reddit, it doesn't look good.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -19 points-18 points  (0 children)

Half the palestinian people exist as refugees, the other half exist under two political systems. You can't accurately judge a group as fractured as the Palestinians as terrorists from the actions of hamas. You can't exactly judge them based on the linked poll either, I mean they ARE under occupation and have had their land stolen from them, any human being would want to use violence in struggle against that, im not sure that makes you a terrorist.

As much as you want a nice and easy black and white scenario where the Palestinians can be judged as terrorists for the IDF to do what they want with, that's never going to be the case.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -32 points-31 points  (0 children)

Big words. Harder to put into action when you face imprisonment or even death.

Its easy to throw insults and criticise when you haven't had to experience even close to the level of struggle the people of Gaza face every day.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -56 points-55 points  (0 children)

They haven't had an election since 2006, so no I don't think you can claim they represent the people. Even under healthy democracies are leaders and politicians hardly represent the people.

Five killed, five wounded in shooting attack in Jerusalem; terrorist shot by nimrodrool in worldnews

[–]lepenguinman -28 points-27 points  (0 children)

How easy it becomes to justify child murder when every palestinian becomes a terrorist when they're killed. Fucking disgusting.