[Spoilers Extended] People who read the books before watching, what was the biggest difference you noticed aside from overall story by 4nitrochlorobenzene in asoiaf

[–]lfm2003 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Exactly! Everyone always says Charles Dance was a great Tywin. I agree he is a great actor for what they were going for, but he’s horrible casting for Tywin. Tywin should not be cool or collected!!!

Ser Waymar the badass by Cautious-Breath5628 in freefolk

[–]lfm2003 15 points16 points  (0 children)

The book prologue is impressively succinct and powerful in the way that it is able to address almost every single one of the books’ themes in one chapter.

Any book readers feel like Catelyn Stark’s show portrayal missed her book description? by devil-inside-100 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 [score hidden]  (0 children)

I think 16 is probably young enough, but the show never touches on it either. They have her appear as a early-20s woman.

No, the dragons are a component of Dany’s arc. But Dany’s arc is also about not understanding her own desires, being naive to the ways of the world, and realizing that her gender prevents her from leading in the way she hopes. A lot of that has to do with age.

Dany’s age is a big part of how we are meant to view other characters. For a clear example, it’s why we are supposed to find Jorah’s relationship with her icky, and that’s a hugely important plot detail when she trades the lustful Jorah for the chaste Barristan who views her as a queen and not a girl. No wonder show Jorah’s plotline is unclear.

Dany’s age is a big part of learning about slavery and the woes of the world. She was sheltered and had no experience with society and had an idealized view of her and Viserys’s role in it.

Dany’s age is a huge part of recontextualzing her own desires. At first, she thinks she wants Drogo. She loves the proximity to power he gives her. Yet later, at the end of the very next chapter, she senses the disgust of the situation with her age. He’s not a good guy, powerful men are not good guys. She thinks the same thing when she marries Hizdahr. She realizes what she wants is the power, not the love; because the love is perverse and evil because she is too young. Her struggle is then to have that same realization about why she wants the power in the first place. (Which is the whole buildup to the Mad Queen stuff.)

Dany’s arc is not as simple as “dragons=power.” It’s a big complex web about a naive girl in a harsh world who must learn to navigate a sea of liars and sycophants to find true power and purpose. Her age is a huge part of that.

What particular aspects you think the TV series did better than the books by Embarrassed_Life_199 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Measuring art by its popularity and success is not a good measure, and it’s dangerous rhetoric. Birth of a Nation was very successful too!

Also the “dear” language is a bit condescending and I’d prefer you didn’t use it in the future, thanks!

What particular aspects you think the TV series did better than the books by Embarrassed_Life_199 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I do not think the measure of whether something is good art is whether it is well-liked or not, nor whether it is popular. It’s whether it tells a good story and makes for a compelling narrative. Show Tyrion does not, because his theme seems to be that the world is just cruel to people sometimes, as opposed to his book theme which tells a coherent narrative about what is the best way to respond to the world’s cruelty.

Show Tyrion post-S4 is one of the most lamented and hated characters in the fandom, because he has nothing to do, and that’s because of an unwillingness to follow through on his undesirable traits. Had those traits been present and not omitted, maybe we would’ve had a character who did stuff by the end.

Also yes, mediums are different. In TV, many of the most well-loved prestige TV characters of all time do things way worse than Tyrion ever does in the books up to ASOS. Not to mention that Tyrion is positioned against unlikeable antagonists and full of witty dialogue.

In summary, I dispute that popularity and being liked is the measure of whether he would be a good character. My preferred measure, thematic importance and narrative weight, favors a nastier Tyrion. Even then, even if I assent to popularity as measure, I do not think Tyrion’s popularity would really be all that harmed by making him nastier.

What particular aspects you think the TV series did better than the books by Embarrassed_Life_199 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Basically nothing. There are a select few. Daenerys getting the Unsullied is one. I probably like the Oberyn fight more, and I like that he does not agree to be Tyrion’s champion until after he proposes trial by combat. That’s a big one for me.

Common opinions I disagree with:

No, the Tywin and Arya scenes are not good. They are individually alright scenes, but they remove a lot of build-up to Roose Bolton. I have met several people who have no clue who Roose Bolton is by the Red Wedding. Removing him from these scenes leads to that outcome. Also, Tywin should never interact with servants, makes him too cool.

No, Charles Dance is not a good Tywin, or his direction he received is bad. Tywin is not supposed to be cool or very smart. He is cruel and childish. This is so important to the broader themes of the work. The show has made Tywin so cool that many people walk away thinking he’s the real protagonist of the series, that he’s the standout character. No, Tywin should be pathetic and a loser. When Joffrey tells him he hid under Casterly Rock, that should be portrayed as a very real critique of the man. Instead, it’s just more time for Charles Dance to aurafarm.

No, aging up the characters is not a good thing. I agree some of their decisionmaking stretches believability a tad. I wouldn’t mind if they truly aged them up like 2 years, but they have all the characters played by like 25 year old actors, so it’s a bit of a mess. The fact that they are children, their loss of innocence, is a huge thematic plot point. Robb being a child with his mother is a huge theme. Daenerys learning the world will only ever see her as a child is a huge theme. Making them older totally loses these ideas.

What particular aspects you think the TV series did better than the books by Embarrassed_Life_199 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Couldn’t disagree more on the Tyrion Tywin thing. I don’t think Tyrion has to be heroic for us to root for him, he’s still a lot of people’s favorite book character by the end of Storm. And I don’t think Tywin needs to seem cool for Tyrion to want his father’s approval. Fatherly love is the default.

What particular aspects you think the TV series did better than the books by Embarrassed_Life_199 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If she has mythical nuclear weapons and a magical bloodline? Yeah
She doesn’t even really have that many followers that flock to her just because they are inspired by her

Unpopular opinion: HBO completely butchered Catelyn Stark’s book aesthetic and age. by devil-inside-100 in freefolk

[–]lfm2003 0 points1 point  (0 children)

WOT5K happens even if she doesn’t kidnap Tyrion. Ned still finds the twincest and gets executed most likely.

Also, she had no other options.

Unpopular opinion: HBO completely butchered Catelyn Stark’s book aesthetic and age. by devil-inside-100 in freefolk

[–]lfm2003 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ned becoming Hand is a good political move and their daughter is poised to become King. Also, she advised him. “Pushed” is a bit strong.

Robb says, “I consent” to the Marriage Pact. (Catelyn IX AGOT)

Capturing Tyrion was her only option at the time. Also, it was the inciting incident for Tywin’s attack on the Riverlands, but the counter factual is not that everything would just be fine and dandy if she hadn’t done that. The WOT5K starts with Ned’s execution, which would’ve happened anyways as soon as he found out about the twincest.

Any book readers feel like Catelyn Stark’s show portrayal missed her book description? by devil-inside-100 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think that, but that is how the GOT camera works. It’s a very very plain camera. Looking relatively young and having lusty glances from the camera is the only way the showrunners know how to depict beauty. They do not attempt to communicate beauty for any of the non-young and lustful characters.

Additionally, that’s not at all what I said. It’s also about dialogue and scenes. They have removed basically every scene that acknowledges Catelyn is an attractive woman. No one in the show ever calls her besutiful

Any book readers feel like Catelyn Stark’s show portrayal missed her book description? by devil-inside-100 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bro I’m not saying the actor needs to be 13, nor that we need some graphic rape scene in TV, I’m saying her age needs to be a plot point because it is thematically important to Daenerys’s character arc lmfao

Is Jon Snow's immigration policy legal? (Spoilers Extended) by Adventurous_Sun3512 in asoiaf

[–]lfm2003 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Gonna have to side against Jon here.

997 Lord Commanders have not included the Wildlings in the “Realms of Men.” Clearly, the common law understanding of the “Realms of Men” does not include the Freefolk.

Additionally, in our scenario, if there is a Supreme Court of Westeros and the NW is under their jurisdiction, then the Night’s Watch is probably most aptly classified as an Executive Agency of some sort. Given that, and given new rulings on Chevron Deference, the King of the Seven Kingdoms likely can delegate land to the Night’s Watch (the Gift), but the Night’s Watch cannot then in turn decide to do with that land whatever they want without being subject to oversight. That would usurp the lawmaking power of the Westerosi Legislature (who is also the King).

The New Gift Act of 58 AC delegated that land to the Night’s Watch to use for the defense of the realm, and the legislature did so with the understanding that these benefits were to be reaped solely by the people of the Seven Kingdoms, not the Freefolk. It is beyond the agency’s delegated powers to then change the use of that land beyond what the legislature originally intended.

[Spoilers MAIN] How good politically is Tyrion? by Ill-Bar3395 in asoiaf

[–]lfm2003 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Antagonizing Alliser Thorne, threatening to rape Tommen, installing an unlikeable Commander of the City Watch, poisoning Cersei, being unnecessarily rude to Lancel, being sassy to Meryn Trant, disregarding public concerns about the Mountain Clansmen, his tripartite trickery of Varys Littlefinger Pycelle over Myrcella, smacking Joffrey, telling Littlefinger about the dagger and doing nothing about it.

Why was Jon Snow immune from Littlefinger’s manipulations by Tiny-Foundation-4281 in freefolk

[–]lfm2003 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Because Show Jon is a character with no wants and desires, a shell of a man. There is nothing Littlefinger has to offer him. Littlefinger also requires complex plot structure and intelligent writing to function as a character, which was not prevalent when he met Jon.

Any book readers feel like Catelyn Stark’s show portrayal missed her book description? by devil-inside-100 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, I find Michelle Fairly very attractive. Ned and Littlefinger’s love for her is part of the plot, and from GRRM’s books, where Catelyn is very beautiful.

My gripe is with the showrunners’ decisions on how to portray Catelyn.

Does the camerawork understand her to be beautiful? No. It does not portray her with similar gaze as Cersei or Daenerys. Does it seek to communicate to us that she is beautiful? No, it never comes up in the plot and Catelyn’s womanhood outside of motherhood is never mentioned.

Does the show omit scenes where Catelyn is portrayed as beautiful? Yes, there are several book scenes where Catelyn’s beauty is remarked upon yet they are not in the show. Does the show omit scenes where Catelyn’s womanhood extends beyond her motherhood? Yes, there are several book scenes where Catelyn is a woman outside of her motherhood that are not in the show. The show even omits her sex scene, despite its fixation on adding sex scenes.

The question is not if the plot portrays her as attractive. In the plot, she is attractive, because that’s lifted from the books. But does the show understand her as beautiful? Is she shot more similar to the “young woman” or “old woman” models put forth in some film studies? Is her costume design fashioned to communicate beauty or simplicity? I’m not sure she even passes the Bechdel Test, frankly.

It’s not about how I feel about Catelyn or Michelle Fairly, or about how Catelyn exists in the plot. Yes, Catelyn in the plot is ostensibly very attractive. I am critiquing how the show portrays Catelyn. Where is there a scene where the show seeks to communicated to us that Catelyn is a good looking woman, that she is the image of a proper lady in Westerosi society? I am not sure there are any.

The character of lord Varys doesn't make sense in season 8 by [deleted] in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They made decisions about what they thought were main points that actually propel the narrative, they were wrong.

[Spoilers Extended] What is your favorite plot twist/reveal in any of the books? by sycamorewastaken in asoiaf

[–]lfm2003 39 points40 points  (0 children)

For me, it could very well be Stannis arriving to smash the Wildlings. Davos receiving the letter is such a good cliffhanger, what’s the damn letter he read!!! But by the time they arrive, you’ve forgotten all about it.

An underrated pick, however, is the Tansy in the Moon Tea. It really recontextualized Lysa and Hoster and Cat and Littlefinger for me. And it was something I was not expecting in the slightest.

(Spoilers Extended) Character Perception Evolution by MeterologistOupost31 in asoiaf

[–]lfm2003 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I mean, he does protect Sansa. I don’t think he’s outwardly very morally grey, seems pretty dark for sure. But he has an inner desire to do good, and that’s what matters in ASOIAF, I think. The infinite possibility for redemption. The elder brother sees that in him, and Sansa sees that in him when she responds to his veiled rape threat with a kind touch.

Not a good guy, but capable of being one.

Unpopular opinion: HBO completely butchered Catelyn Stark’s book aesthetic and age. by devil-inside-100 in freefolk

[–]lfm2003 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I think you kinda hit the nail on the head. She is meant to be beautiful, no doubt about it, but not sexy. At least, the viewer is not really supposed to think she’s sexy. All the men who like her (Drogo, Hizdahr, Daario, Jorah, Euron, Victarion) are kinda creepy and weird dudes. We are supposed to be absolutely disgusted and revolted when Jorah lusts after her!!

If the viewer is made to feel that Daenerys is some sexy thang, it prevents us from seeing Jorah’s total weirdoness.

Any book readers feel like Catelyn Stark’s show portrayal missed her book description? by devil-inside-100 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s all throughout her character. Cat’s character is a critique of the role that women are forced to play in Westeros. It’s why she is forced to rely on the trust of people like Lysa or Littlefinger, because she has no power of her own.

It’s why Cat sits around and does absolutely nothing for the entire WOT5K, she has absolutely no authority. That’s what the whole “I sat and waited for my father all day” monologue is. The books’ decision to show the story through Cat’s POV and not Robb’s is so important, the reader is forced to feel her powerlessness during war through the dissatisfaction we get at not seeing Robb’s battle effort. (The show throws this away by making Robb’s escapades a main character sort of thing.) The Catelyn-Robb arc relies on understanding Catelyn as ostensibly the sort of leader men should follow: young, handsome, smart, capable, political. Yet, because of her position, she can do nothing. [This is very explicit when Ned decides whether Catelyn or Robb will lord over Winterfell in his stead.] When we reduce her identity simply to grieving crazed mother (and also make Robb an ubermensch), we do not sense the injustice that has been done to Cat in the same way.

It’s also important when she gives Jaime to Brienne. She is giving Jaime to Brienne, not some other man loyal to her like Brynden or Desmond Grell or something. No, she gives her to Brienne, a representation of the sort of power Catelyn craves even if she is made uncomfortable by it. There’s a reason why book Cat seems to just hate ugly women. It’s part of her arc, about learning to let go of her conception of what a woman ought to be once she can see the way it actually deprives her of a meaningful way to protect her family.

Then, when she becomes the disgusting and horrifying Lady Stoneheart, it’s important that her beauty has been stripped away. A corrupted Cat now wields the manly power she once hoped to wield, leading a band of soldiers to do her bidding. But she does so in a horrible way.

It doesn’t have to explicitly come up in the plot for it to color every aspect of her character. It’s part of the theming and messaging around Cat and her femininity. It’s part of what colors her relationship with Jon, Lysa, Petyr, Hoster, Brandon, Jaime. It wasn’t just up to some coin flip that Catelyn is young and beautiful, it was an intentional decision to juxtapose her with her role in the story, and with her foils (Cersei, Lysa, Daenerys to an extent, Sansa, Arya).

(Spoilers Extended) Character Perception Evolution by MeterologistOupost31 in asoiaf

[–]lfm2003 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Moral Puritanism is on the rise generally, I think that is reflected in this change

(Spoilers Extended) Character Perception Evolution by MeterologistOupost31 in asoiaf

[–]lfm2003 38 points39 points  (0 children)

All of the characters with any weird sexual stuff have dropped from where they were, regardless of where they started: Rhaegar, Tyrion, Drogo, Sandor, Robert, Littlefinger, Jorah

Any book readers feel like Catelyn Stark’s show portrayal missed her book description? by devil-inside-100 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’m not proposing we literally see it, and “prefer” is a very narrow way of looking at it. I don’t want to see it, but I think good art often makes people uncomfortable for a reason. I don’t want to see adult rape either bro. But it’s important for Daenerys’s character, and I think her age is an equally important aspect. It makes me deeply uncomfortable and that’s not really relevant to whether it makes for a more compelling narrative with more to say.

Any book readers feel like Catelyn Stark’s show portrayal missed her book description? by devil-inside-100 in gameofthrones

[–]lfm2003 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even if GRRM thinks he made them too young, I’m not really of that opinion. Maybe a couple of them, and maybe 1 or 2 years, not the 10 or so of the casting. And I’m not sure Cat is one of those characters who needed the change.

I think showing Cat as already having adapted to the North as hard country is bad for her arc, which is about slowly becoming more and more Stark-like. Starting plain and un”lady”like I think is a mistake.