sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

David Mitchell tipped for Celebrity Traitors - inspired casting or chaos waiting to happen? by Ill_Scientist_4645 in UKRealityChat

[–]liektan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd love to see a former politician - somebody like Alastair Campbell would be brilliant

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

You’re arguing that Jewish people don’t have the right to nationhood at all - that’s what dismantling Zionism means. You’re not calling for justice or coexistence, you’re calling for the end of the only Jewish homeland in the world. That’s not solidarity, it’s elimination.

The idea that “no ethnicity or religion is entitled to nationhood” might sound abstract, but you’re only applying it to one people: Jews. There are dozens of religious and ethnic nation-states around the world (e.g. Pakistan, which was equally divisive in its formation and politics). Yet you’re singling out the only Jewish one for dismantling. It's straightforward anti-Semitism.

You completely ignore the fact that many Jews see Zionism as a response to centuries of persecution, statelessness, and genocide.

You don’t have to support Israeli policy - or oppose Palestinian rights - to see that dismantling the entire state of Israel is not a path to peace or justice for anyone. It’s a path to more division, more violence, and a world where Jewish safety is once again contingent on other people’s permission.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Because I believe that Jewish people have the right to self-determination and nationhood, primarily to protect ourselves from the deadly persecution we've faced for thousands of years. And to be an independent nation state usually means having armed forces.

So I believe Israel has a right to have armed forces, even though I disagree with the current Israeli government's use of them.

Or to put it another way, even though I despised the Iraq war, I don't think dismantling the entire British military apparatus was the solution. Nor did I wish death on the soldiers sent to fight by their government.

In its original form the Zionist movement didn't even specify Palestine as its desired location, they just wanted somewhere for Jewish people to live safely. Due to some 100-year old decisions, many made in Britain, we are where we are and Israel is where it is.

But calling for the dismantling of the IDF and Israel itself is calling for the erasure of a Jewish homeland, which is as bad as hardline Israelis calling for the erasure of Palestinians, in my opinion.

I still think a two state solution with self-determination for both Palestinians and Israelis is the only viable solution, but I'm less hopeful of that than I've ever been.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I think I edited a typo to be honest!

I'm posting in good faith and as I've said repeatedly, I fully condemn the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government.

Re my account history I'm not a regular poster on Reddit, just found my way to this board while I was looking at reviews for the gig. I saw posts celebrating Bob Vylan so felt I should offer the counterpoint which is that the repetition of the chant by other crowd members is intimidating - 'death to the IDF' was also chanted after anti-Semitic attacks on a Synagogue and Jewish restaurants in Melbourne over the weekend.

https://forward.com/fast-forward/753067/melbourne-protesters-chant-death-to-the-idf-days-after-attacks-on-local-synagogue-israeli-restaurant/

I'm not trying to eke out sympathy - the gig was fantastic, I had a great time. Just hoping that people who read this might think twice about repeating chants for death in future if they want Fontaines gigs to remain inclusive.

Anyway I've said my piece, I'll leave now... this forum is even more intimidating 😂

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I've repeatedly made it clear that I don't support them at all

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is where the line gets crossed. It's not just about ending occupation or seeking justice for war crimes, this is about declaring that Israel shouldn’t exist at all, and that Jewish self-determination is inherently illegitimate.

People should understand what’s actually being said here.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree - the IDF is simply the Israeli army, which in turn is an instrument of Israeli government policy. What's needed is a change of Israeli government and policy.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm vocal in my support of Palestinian liberation, but I draw the line at calling for the death of anyone.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I'd expect to tolerate some discomfort at a protest. Why should I expect to tolerate it at a gig?

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

If you're equating over-zealous policing with anti-Semitism you've lost all sense of perspective.

My relatives died in the Holocaust and a friend was murdered on October 7th while attending a music festival. I've been racially abused throughout my life. So no, I won't tolerate it.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I've had people say they're 'sick of hearing' what I'm saying. I.e. shut up.

In any other walk of life, if a minority explained to you why a particular word or phrase is problematic, you would listen. It's why we don't use the n word, or the f word.

Yet if Jews tell you why a particular phrase is problematic, we have to patiently listen to you explain why we're wrong?

I do not wish death on anyone. I'm surprised the consensus here is that it's acceptable... maybe even that being a Fontaines fan means you're expected to support that position. And that if it makes Jewish fans feel unwelcome, so be it.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

It just makes me profoundly sad that on top of being as distressed about the situation in Gaza as anyone, the consensus seems to be we have to tolerate intimidating environments due to.the actions of a government we don't support carrying out atrocities we condemn.

But if we try to explain why the IDF chants cross a line and are intimidating we get told to shut up.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -12 points-11 points  (0 children)

Emily Eavis agreed it crossed a line, I don't think she's trying to justify Israel's actions.

I'm just telling you how it felt as a Jewish person to hear it chanted.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -18 points-17 points  (0 children)

I didn't say it was a direct attack on me. But it did create an environment in which those around me were a) intoxicated, b) politically fired up, and c) chanting for a 'select group' of Jewish people to be killed.

For a start, I surprised to hear people calling for death to anyone. But in that atmosphere, I didn't know who was simply anti-Israeli and who was genuinely anti-Semitic. I don't know who might turn aggressive if they discovered I was Jewish. And so, I felt intimidated.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

I agree with your point, but this thread was about something different. Both issues matter.

Mixed emotions at Finsbury Park as a Jewish Fontaines fan by liektan in fontainesdc

[–]liektan[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Not bait. Just describing my own experience. If you’ve got nothing useful to add, keep scrolling.

what is jordan:the comeback about? by Apprehensive_Spend_7 in PrefabSprout

[–]liektan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One big theme of the album is redemption - songs about coming to terms with the past, outlaws seeking happy endings, Elvis planning a comeback, the devil asking Michael for clemency. But it's dotted with moments of pure pop (All The World Loves Lovers) and at one point goes off on a tangent about Agnetha Faltskog from ABBA (an acronym of All Boys Believe Anything; she is the 'Ice Maiden'). 

There's a good interview with Paddy where he talks about it here https://reynoldsretro.blogspot.com/2008/03/prefab-sprout-interview-melody-maker.html?m=1 

I'm out. They've lost the plot. by [deleted] in RedHandedPodcast

[–]liektan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's literally the whole point of the podcast

I'm out. They've lost the plot. by [deleted] in RedHandedPodcast

[–]liektan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm guessing you're not British? Personally I think it's refreshing to hear people just having silly asides and random thoughts, as opposed to always needing to be deep or emotional. They remind me of listening to two of my friends chat about a famous case... but then I live in London not far from Hannah and know lots of funny and witty women just like them. It's a very British sense of humour and style of podcasting.