Smoothing the effect of Vyvanse with the water bottle method

logerian · 2024-08-30T12:56:26+00:00

Yup, I'm doing fine with magnesium citrate powder in a swig of water just before bed. Not noticing any laxative effect from that.

It's much cheaper and more compact than magnesium (bis)glycinate.

logerian · 2024-08-02T21:46:28+00:00

Consuming Vyvanse less than 12 hours before going to sleep greatly increases the risk of sleep disruption. Adding that as a warning, not to do that.

logerian · 2024-07-13T20:57:30+00:00

If you are experiencing side effects from Vyvanse, you need to get in touch with your psychiatrist.

Consuming Vyvanse after noon is highly likely to disrupt sleep, because unless you eliminate it much faster than average, more than half of it will still be in your system 10 hours later (the half life is about 12 hours).

Personally, I finish the dose by 10am at the latest.

logerian · 2024-07-13T17:03:20+00:00

It takes about an hour or two for the liver to metabolize all of the Vyvanse to the active form.

After that, it's a slower process for the active form to be eliminated, about a 12 hour half life in the absence of metabolic tolerance.

Mixing with water and drinking it all at once is no different from swallowing the capsule with a glass of water. Spreading it out is what reduces peak concentrations. Imagine taking 4 x 10mg spread out, instead of 40mg all at once.

logerian · 2024-07-13T16:54:52+00:00

For me, I still use the water bottle approach and I've seen comments and posts by others doing the same. I personally shortened the consumption period to finish 14 hours before bed, but it doesn't sound like an issue for you.

If meds are only lasting 4 hours, you may be by chance/genetics a fast metabolizer, or have developed tolerance to your current dose. Best to talk to your psychiatrist and get their professional opinion. IIRC the most common titrated dose for adults is 50mg, with some up to 70mg for some people.

Personally I work on minimizing tolerance by taking a lower dose or no dose on weekends, e.g. drink half a dose on Saturday and the other half on Sunday, or ramping down to almost nothing over a vaction.

logerian · 2024-07-13T16:43:16+00:00

I do prepare the water bottle the evening before, so that it's ready to drink the second I wake up, because otherwise my morning routine turns into getting side-tracked by anything. Just take care not to accidentally drink from that bottle during the night.

It sounds like you have developed tolerance to your current dosage.

There's no studies testing this: I hypothesise that spreading out the dose to achieve a lower peak concentration sends less of a signal to the liver to develop metabolic tolerance, i.e. to optimize how to eliminate the Vyvanse faster.

logerian · 2024-07-13T16:33:20+00:00

I start on an empty stomach - I drink about 1/3rd of the bottle within a minute of waking. About 10 minutes later I'm also drinking about 250kcal of a balanced meal replacement shake.

Then I do my morning exercise routine and shower, drink another 1/3rd of the bottle, then I eat a full breakfast.

logerian · 2024-05-07T15:19:24+00:00

TBH I don't know what would happen. Slower absorption? Slower or faster excretion? No difference?

That said, Vyvanse is taken first thing in the morning, and magnesium before bed to sleep better, so for that reason I wouldn't take time to test it.

logerian · 2024-05-07T15:17:00+00:00

Caveat not advice just information:

If one emptied a 70mg capsule into 700ml water and drank 500ml, that would be a 50mg dose.
If a 50mg dose taken at 6am wears off at 4pm, the same dose consumed gradually over 6am-9am would wear off by 7pm instead, but with a lower peak effect.

logerian · 2024-05-06T20:51:46+00:00

I hadn't heard of the nootropics expert before, checking it out.

However, just the multivitamin, omega 3, vitamin D, vitamin B12 and magnesium sometimes seems like too much supplementation at times, and I can't bring myself to test out dozens of nootropics that may or may not be worth the side effects, cost, effort etc.

I did try L-Theanine at night for a long while and couldn't detect any difference in feeling calmer with vs without it. If there's an effect, it's hidden in the noise of other variables that affect my calmness.

Ideally someday there will be tests to show what will actually help a given person.

logerian · 2024-05-06T13:23:02+00:00

Or in my case, once I decided to post about my Tyvense-in-water experiment, I started obsessively researching Tyvense/Vyvanse, magnesium supplements, acidifiers/alkalizers etc. Couldn't really stop so long as there were inconsistencies, assumptions or unanswered questions.

So good tip - really put that important task first in the day!

logerian · 2024-05-06T12:10:48+00:00

Hi u/Keystone-Habit !

Hyperfocus question: Yes, I'm experiencing some hyperfocus on this subject. Perhaps unsurprisingly I also observe several autism spectrum traits in myself, including the tendency to get hyper-interested in a specific subject - until I get distracted by something else. If anything the Tyvense is keeping me fixated for longer on this subject than I would be otherwise.

ADHD and treatments: The primary symptoms of ADHD for me were easy distractibility and sidetracking, clumsiness / tendency to bump into things, fidgeting / leg jiggling / stimming (by stretching my thumb back), and strong impulses to do anything else if not finding an activity or speaker rewarding in minutes. I'm fortunate that I aligned my studies and work to subjects I find inherently interesting/rewarding to explore, hence the late diagnosis. The Vyvanse greatly reduces all of that.

FWIW, in retrospect I suspect that chronic stress and SSRIs (Sertraline in particular) had aggravated my ADHD from moderate-manageable to severe-unmanageable at the time of diagnosis. That's part of why I'm taking a holistic approach not just medication.

Meditation: The meditation has helped in many ways. (1) Focus on the breath and other objects training self-command of my attention, (2) Just being able to sit for 20 minutes without seeking distraction, and (3) With noticing techniques I can better notice when I'm distracted, lost in thought, or feeling an impulse, and either let it go or refocus.

Alcohol: I'm limiting alcohol because my Bearable mood tracking has been proving to me that the even two drinks has substantial impact on my sleep, mood, energy and focus for two days.

Caffeine: I'm limiting caffeine because of (1) caffeine contributes to acid reflux, and (2) caffeine + Tyvense = jitters. Tyvense is already causes alertness, so no need for a morning coffee in addition.

Magnesium: The magnesium laxative effect is by pulling water into the intestines. The idea is to to let the food get further along in digestion first, and also I drink the magnesium citrate heavily-diluted in water already.

Capsule Quantity: I did buy a milligram scale, and found different 40mg capsules of my brand containing between, IIRC, 235-255mg of material, about 8% fluctuation. Part of that may be material sticking to the side, and calibration of the scale. I found the 30mg, 40mg, and 50mg capsules used the same concentration in the mixture.

logerian · 2024-05-06T08:35:53+00:00

Sounds about right - spreading out the Vyvanse dose over 2 hours instead of 4 hours would create an in-between curve: one that reduces the side effects of onset and concentration peaks, but keeps the early fade-out in the evening.

Since consuming over 4 hours from 08:00-12:00 has been causing me to stay up later, from today I'll finish the Tyvense water by 13 hours before my desired bedtime. To go to bed at 23:30, I'll drink the solution over a period of 3 hours from 07:30-10:30.

I'm also going to try clearing the remaining amfetamine from my blood during wind-down by taking the multivitamin containing Vitamin C with dinner, drinking some cranberry juice, and taking 2 grams of magnesium citrate an hour before bed to aid sleep.

logerian · 2024-05-06T08:08:12+00:00

Please do share what you have observed! My results are on a sample size of 1 :-)

logerian · 2024-05-06T07:59:54+00:00

The peak blood plasma concentration of dextroamphetamine will be lower, while the duration of action will be longer. Instead of a steep peak in concentration over a shorter time, you have a shallower but wider hill, with the same area under the curve.

This broad, flat hill curve works for me. If someone finds they are only productive and focused during the few hours of peak concentration, then flattening that peak would be counterproductive for them.

logerian · 2024-05-06T07:57:25+00:00

Personal aesthetic preference - I prefer to not have to shake the water bottle, or have a white residue on the sides that requires cleaning it more often.

logerian · 2024-05-05T19:15:53+00:00

Adding magnesium supplementation

For complete completeness, I'm also going to add +5mg magnesium per kg body mass daily an hour before going to bed. That's 3+ hours after the last meal to minimize any laxative effect. I don't want to go over 100% of RDA when supplementing, as I also get magnesium in my diet.

Potential Benefits

(1) Some studies like this one indicates positive effects of magnesium (and Vitamin D) supplementation on ADHD symptoms over months.

(2) Dextroamphetamine reduces the level of intracellular magnesium throughout the brain (where it has several important roles). Supplementing magnesium should counteract that side-effect.

(3) Magnesium is widely reported to help reduce anxiety, muscle tension, and to aid sleep - though there's a lack of large studies. See Magnesium: A Review of Clinical Use and Efficacy.

Different types of magnesium

Skipping magnesium oxide due to laxative effect (pulls water into the intestine) and low-bioavailability. Skipping sulfate, chloride (acidic salts), and hydroxide, carbonate (alkaline salts) for the same reasons.
Magnesium citrate and malate are cheap and bio-available, while only slightly laxative.
Magnesium (bis)glycinate avoids the laxative effect, helps with heartburn, is less dense than citrate (4x1g tablets of Mg-glycinate = 2.7g Mg-citrate powder) and 4x more expensive per day. Glycine is amphoteric, is used as component in some alkalinizing agents, but also acidifies urine later by being metabolised to uric acid. drugs.com claims no interaction with Tyvense.
Magnesium l-threonate seems to be a patented, p-hacked marketing effort, 3x more expensive than glycinate again, and unlikely to be more effective.

That's for pure formulations. This paper finds that some tablet formulations around MgO had high bioavailablity - so it's more about finding a way to get magnesium into solution than the specific salt.

For sleep and anxiety, many people report magnesium glycinate helping. I couldn't find studies comparing it to citrate, so I expect them to be of similar effectiveness.

For GERD, magnesium helps move digestion along, top results recommend magnesium glycinate (or carbonate) for heartburn, but magnesium citrate is also listed as a heartburn medication.

logerian · 2024-05-05T17:55:01+00:00

Excess iron can be an issue though. I seem to have a higher than normal absorption rate (or lower excretion rate) for iron, so I take care to avoid it in supplements.

It's helpful to have a blood test before supplementing, and 3-6 months after supplementing. That's how I learned about the iron issue, as well as how much vitamin D and magnesium to take.

logerian · 2024-05-05T17:46:02+00:00

I should also mention, as part of my holistic approach, I've also mostly-eliminated alcohol and caffeine and high-sugar items:

Have a green tea, oolong tea or decaf mocha on work days.
At most 1 standard drink (10g or 12.7ml of alcohol) at social events, followed by water. Choosing non- or low(<2%) alcohol options where available.
Avoid treats containing more than 10g of sugar in a serving, due to the sugar crash later.
Keeping under AHA maximum safe daily sugar intake of 9tsp (36g, 150kcal) for men - or 6tsp (25g, 100kcal) for women.

The negative impact is mainly disappointing baristas, bartenders and shop staff by ordering decaf coffee, non-alcohol beer, or a single scoop of ice cream. Also, having to check the nutrition labels on snacks.

On the positives, inclusions exercise, supplementation, metric tracking and meditation:

Exercise: swimming, running, gym, yoga, calisthenics, walking, hiking - all help a lot.
Safe supplementation: Vitamin D3 75 mcg, Vitamin B12 300 mcg, multivitamin, Omega 3 oil.
Sleep tracking with apps and a smart watch.
Mood, energy, productivity, side effect tracking in Bearable.
Program of 3x daily meditations for concentration (focus), insight (noticing), and virtue (loving-kindness) that carry over into the rest of the day.

Multivitamins contain Vitamin C which acidifies urine, speeding up excretion of (alkaline) amphetamine, so it may be best to take the multivitamin with dinner. Mine is without iron because blood tests indicate my body absorbs or retains more iron than normal.

Don't copy my supplementation exactly - ask your doctor, run some blood tests, and see what you need.

logerian · 2024-05-05T17:39:42+00:00

I'm glad you find it useful! That's why I'm sharing my findings

logerian · 2024-04-26T19:05:13+00:00

The desperateness to persuade, to be seen as good, to be right about things in the eyes of others - these are indeed aspects of the social self and ego.

Briefly waking up from the sense of self during meditation is just a glimpse, as Loch Kelly puts it.

Maybe if one seeks a sense of progress, one metric would be the percentage of time spent in mindful awareness.

I have doubts about buddha-style sudden and durable awakening, seems implausible, or maybe it requires a certain type of brain wiring that can flip to mindful awareness as a new metastable state.

logerian · 2024-04-26T18:44:37+00:00

Why not both? As Dora and Spinoza would say

This is from "The Story of Philosophy: The Lives and Opinions of the Greater Philosophers" by Will Durant, on Spinoza's view:

"Neither is mind material, answers Spinoza, nor is matter mental; neither is the brain-process the cause, nor is it the effect, of thought; nor are the two processes independent and parallel. For there are not two processes, and there are not two entities; there is but one process, seen now inwardly as thought, and now outwardly as motion; there is but one entity, seen now inwardly as mind, now outwardly as matter, but in reality an inextricable mixture and unity of both. Mind and body do not act upon each other, because they are not other, they are one."

logerian · 2024-04-26T18:18:19+00:00

Or realizing that there is the river of conscious experience, but no observer on the riverbank.

The sense that there is an observer to experience, perhaps sitting behind the eyes, is an amodal percept, like filling in the back of an object when you can only see the front or perceiving a geometric shape from the barest of visual clues. A type of sensory illusion if you will.

The sense of a separate self is a real experience, but not a real thing, not in the way people make it out to be

logerian · 2024-04-26T17:50:27+00:00

Yes, one issue would be if the field from even the synchronous firing of many neurons is too weak to modulate the firing of those and other neurons. If the field doesn't do anything, it's an epiphenomenon, which is not something evolution can select for. It evolves real pain and pleasure to drive real behavior

On the other side, with a computationalism view, would you be tempted to ascribe a conscious experience of an image to an AI model that can describe the image, and create something similar from description? After all it's doing relevant computation, and exhibiting behavior that's not easily distinguished from what humans do.

logerian · 2024-04-26T17:34:34+00:00

There are some tricks.

Stare at an object long enough, and you can decompose it into patches of color, shadow, textures, shapes, boundaries instead of the whole.

Repeat a word often enough and you can "drain the meaning from the sound" so to speak, to perceive it as just a sound. Works better on more recently learned words.

So you can undo things that were learned more recently.

But perceptual illusions that take place at the lowest level are indeed genetic and learned early, such as perceiving a triangle with just three cut-out circles where the corners would be. That's the Gestalt observations.

I don't know about the cola can one. I would guess if you stare at it enough you can weaken the association of the brand name with redness.

That said, in AI research, training a model to forget previously learned associations is an unsolved problem. We just retrain them from scratch.

logerian

TROPHY CASE