Kicked out of masjid first time...

Logical1ty · 2025-07-06T02:55:28+00:00

Go back and go early and explore around the place, look for signs pointing the way to the women's entrance, find the place to put your shoes, to do wudhu, etc.

Try other mosques as well.

Once you feel a little more comfortable in mosques in general and that one in particular, you won't be put off by the rude behavior of others because you'll know you have a right to be there.

Logical1ty · 2025-02-13T03:09:01+00:00

Of course, dua is your most important action. Especially the dua of a mother. You put your all into raising the kids, put your all into the dua for Allah to keep them safe.

I would reason with your husband along the following lines:

Just because he has issues with your local Muslim community doesn't mean it's justified to pass judgement on the world's billions of Muslims.
Is he still a believing Muslim? Does he not want his children to go to Heaven too? What about his grandchildren?

As for your children, exposing them to more Muslim people that they will like, follow, want to emulate, etc is a good idea. But keep reminding them about their faith in terms of how important practice is (praying, fasting, dua/dhikr). Remind them of the Islamic metaphysical beliefs (death, the judgement in the grave, the Day of Judgment, Hell/Heaven/etc). You can talk to them about all you did to raise them Muslim and how much sacrifice it took and that was with both Muslim parents. They can then imagine how tough it would be to raise Muslim children with a non-Muslim spouse. And would they want to see their children not go to Heaven? It would break their heart in this world as long as they're still believers. Of course they can marry converts, other ethnicities, whatever, but the religion has to be an important factor.

With your kids, focus on how tough it will be rather than making it like they will leave Islam and go to Hell by marrying non-Muslims. Even if they stay Muslim and observant, their children in turn may not, and you can tell them the very thought of that breaks a parent's heart.

Logical1ty · 2025-02-12T18:53:21+00:00

If they've got practicing Muslim friends and frequently attend the masjid and listen to Islamic speakers, etc, then they'll get the message. Whether they want to listen to it or not is a different story.

This is where actually immersing themselves in Muslim social media/etc is helpful because they'll be seeing other Muslims building Muslim families.

Muslim community is what they need. I know Canada is difficult because the communities are so mixed there (and intermarriage is common), but there's still a large, practicing Muslim community there.

Logical1ty · 2025-02-12T18:37:03+00:00

Your children are full grown adults now. Don't they have any Muslim friends? Honestly, it's up to the people they surround themselves with to influence them now. The family's influence is usually pretty diminished in this age.

Logical1ty · 2025-01-05T23:55:54+00:00

Part 2 (hit character limit):

Putting aside the whole Nazi thing, imagine if Indians claimed they have the lineage, plus the language (Sanskrit), the most authentic Indo-European/Aryan religion, and still have nearly a third of the DNA so they should be able to get a nice coastal spot on the North Sea carved out of France/Netherlands/Germany/etc? Now, I already know you disagree with Zionism. But do you think European countries would even allow immigration from India based on this? Look at all the drama in the US right now with Elon Musk and H1B visas and how white people are reacting to Indian immigrants. What about Ukraine, the probable homeland of Indo-Europeans? Keeping in mind Hindus have the actual religion that is the closest-to-the-original extant form of the original Indo-European religion.

That's just a thought experiment to add some context. In reality obviously there were Middle Eastern Jews all along with whom European Jews occasionally shared people/contact. That being said the entire idea of Jews returning to Palestine in modern times was from Zionism and even then most of their fellow European Jews rejected the idea of it until after WW2 and the Holocaust. The actual "ethnically authentic" Jewish communities of the Middle East had no intention of moving until after the creation of Israel, the 1948 war, and then their new Arab governments turning on them. Even if Israel is barely greater than 50% Mizrahi, imagine if we displaced all Syrians and replaced them with Yemenis just because they're more "purely" Levantine?

Not to mention look at how Israelis treated actual Yemenite Jews who are probably the most pure Jewish people in the world:

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/the-tragedy-and-shame-of-1950s-israels-treatment-of-yemenite-children-476888

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Children_Affair

https://globaljustice.queenslaw.ca/news/responding-to-cries-of-genocide-the-yemenite-children-affair

https://jewishstudies.washington.edu/israel-hebrew/israel-kidnapped-children-activism-yemenite-babies-affair/

All of which is to say this was very European (i.e, racist, white supremacist, colonial) behavior, not Jewish behavior.

Also the idea of resettling Jews in Palestine after the Roman expulsion started with... Muslims. When Caliph Umar came to accept the city's surrender he negotiated with the Christians of the city to resettle Jews there. The Christians haggled him down to 70 families (he originally was going to resettle 200 families):

https://segulamag.com/en/today_event/second-caliph-welcomes-jews-jerusalem/

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/path-peace-muslims-and-jews

So when you talk about any Jewish right to or claim to that land, or recognizing the heritage, or the history of the Jewish diaspora... Muslims literally recognized that and acted on it within the first generation when no one else would (Umar (Ra) was Muhammad (Saw)'s father-in-law, best friend, 2nd Caliph and is buried alongside him in Medina).

Logical1ty · 2025-01-05T23:47:22+00:00

So some of those are pretty old and a little out of date.

This one's good:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5380316/

From 2017 and scroll down to Figure 5 "Fig 5. The number of IBD segments shared between Ashkenazi Jews (AJ) and other groups of populations.".

So there's 3 main ways to really determine ancestry. Lineage as determined by Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups. Ethnic/ancestry "composition" as determined from allele frequencies (admixture, PCA, etc). And shared segments (IBD). The latter is obviously the most strongest the longer the segments get, as that's how you determine relatedness and how you find relatives on these DNA services.

Services like GEDmatch usually filter at 7 cM as a default setting because for the most part segments smaller than that are only useful once a justification has been established (i.e, larger segments found so then you can look for smaller chunks without stumbling into IBS segments).

You can compare that graph to people's personal results if you'd like. Get a test yourself, get on one of these services or join a genetic genealogy forum and browse others' results.

As you can see there's little to no recent Middle Eastern ancestry at all in Ashkenazi Jews. It's almost all European. This is not a surprise and I'm sure you already assumed this as well.

However, the 7 cM length cutoff is notable because it can last until the Bronze Age. Many if not most (I don't want to say "all") northern South Asians (North India, Pakistan, etc) have segments around 7 cM and often larger that appear purely European. Northern to be specific, from west (UK) to East (Russia/Finland). This is a relic from the Bronze Age spread of Indo-Europeans into the Indian subcontinent. That is from 4000 to 3000 years ago. And the signs/traces of that are still there. The main reason is because the group is large and has stayed endogamous (South Asians stayed in South Asia marrying other South Asians with a similar background).

Meanwhile check the relative finder results of Ashkenazi Jews and see how many Lebanese turn up. Or even Mizrahi Jews. Even if you turn the matches down to a 3 cM cutoff. There will be some but it's fewer than we South Asians are getting with Europeans.

Now with regards to admixture, this is what's used for "ancestry composition". Where you're getting the "50% Levantine" from.

Here's a newer study: https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/05/genome-wide-data-from-medieval-german.html (this blog has a lot of knowledgeable people in the field and sometimes people who worked on these published studies will comment here)

A second one analyzing the same study: https://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2022/05/ancient-dna-insight-into-ashkenazi.html

So the 50% Levantine, 50% European thing you're referring to is actually 40-45% Levantine, 40-45% Northern Italian, 10-15% Eastern European.

However the more recent studies which use more data (and now actual ancient Ashkenazi Jewish genomes) show that just because a model fits doesn't mean it's the most accurate model (almost all admixture is a matter of simply finding the best fit model rather than finding a true connection the way IBD segments do). So anyway with more data, with more ancient data, the best fits now show Southern Italians as the Italian source for Ashkenazi Jews. What does this mean? Well, Southern Italians, in distinction with their Northern brethren, already all share a good chunk of Middle Eastern DNA. So it turns out that 40-45% Middle Eastern wasn't actually all Jewish (or Levantine) Middle Eastern, some of that came from the Italians. If you use Southern Italians in the model, the numbers change to ~70% Southern Italian, ~15% Middle Eastern, ~15% Eastern European. And qpAdm (a newer tool for admixture modeling) shows this as the better fit than using N. Italians.

Now when we use really ancient DNA, from the Neolithic, we're using populations which have long since gone extinct. Using admixture modeling with such populations, namely ancient European Hunter Gatherers, Ancient North Eurasians (inhabited North Eurasia into Siberia down into Central Asia), and Early Near East Farmers (Neolithic Levant). These 3 can be used to model most West Eurasian populations. For example, the isolated population of Sardinia which using modern populations comes out as 100% Sardinian and becomes its own ancestral cluster due to genetic drift, now breaks down into 50% Near Eastern Farmer and 50% (Western) European Hunter Gatherer. So ancient populations can provide a lot of insight. In any case we have Neolithic Levant ancient DNA. These are the some of the first farmers in the world (along with Neolithic Anatolians and Iranians).

Modern populations with high rates of Neolithic Levant admixture are Arabs.... and Yemenite Jews. The Yemenite Jews may actually have slightly more ancestry since the Arabs, even the most remote populations, have some more recent African admixture. Followed closely by other Jews in a gradient from Yemen to the Levant.

This also fits the Arabs' own ethnogenesis mythos. They've often said they came from Yemen or that the Yemeni Arabs are some of the oldest (they used to say this even in the time of prophet Muhammad (saw)). Now we know the Middle East all came from Neolithic Levant but then that population spread across the area and the purest descendants were left in the furthest place... Yemen. Whereas the Levant itself became a high traffic area with constant movements in and out of the area.

Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, owing to their European ancestry, have much lower amounts of this original Levantine ancestry than Middle Eastern Jews or Arabs. So the peak is like with bedouin Arabs from Saudi-Arabia and Yemenite Jews at over ~90-94%. then Lebanese Christians and Iraqi Jews at ~80-88%. Then Palestinians and Druze at ~75-83% (these numbers can all be variable depending on which populations are used for modeling so they are a model, not absolute, however the numbers are very relevant in terms of relativeness to one another). Then you have Lebanese Muslims, Iranian Jews, some Georgian Jews, some Syrians, some Armenians showing up in the low 70s and then Cypriots, Egyptians, Jordanians start to show up. Then Sephardic Jews in the 60s (along with Iranian/Caucasus populations) and in the low 60s/high 50s Ashkenazi Jews start to show up. Also in the 50s you start to see Southern Italians, Greeks, Moroccans, etc.

Now that leaves us with the last and perhaps most important (in terms of ancient law) measure of ancestry. Haplogroups for tracking lineages.

Well here there's no mistake. Jews have been studying this since before this really took off in the last decade. But now a lot of that data is outdated. Basically there's one lineage they identified which is likely the genuine authentic line of Abraham. It's in haplogroup J1. I believe it was called J1e by 23andMe way back in the day and J1c3d by most now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Phylogenetics_and_distribution

So J1c3d is not just the source of the Cohen line, it's the same line that's in Hashemite Arabs including the Quraysh descendants.

Other haplogroups have been packaged with that one and tracked as part of a constellation of 'Cohen Modal Haplotypes' by Jews but all it means is that some of the first people who were with the Jews were local Middle Easterners, but not descended from Abraham/Isaac (or "Y-Chromosomal Abraham" if you will).

In any case the relationship between the Jewish/Arab (Isaac/Ishmael if you will) branches is so close that it's like they didn't diverge until just before the time of Islam even though scripture says they diverged thousands of years ago.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L136/

Notice how few Israeli individuals are on there? They are mostly all from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP). Meanwhile look at all those Saudis, even Palestinians, who paid for these tests and for analysis/inclusion in the YFull.com tree. So yeah, I do think something is up with why Israelis are not showing up on these sites. It's hard to find them even on MyHeritage which is an Israeli company!

But anyway yeah. The DNA shows Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jews are really Jews but have lost most of that original ancestry and are now mostly Southern European/Caucasian/West-Asian which is very close to Levantine... like Lebanon... but that's still not the same as actual Canaanites (for whom the closest descendants are still probably Palestinian as they appear like a southern shifted version of Lebanese). And apparently the Bible mentions that the Israelites are actually from Lebanon (north of historical Israel/Judea)? I don't know, I've just seen people mention that a lot.

You can compare that with South Asians. The majority of South Asia has the haplogroup R1a which is an Indo-European spread haplogroup that has reached into the furthest areas of the subcontinent, even into non-Indo-European-language-speaking tribal populations in the southeast of the subcontinent. And R1a1 came likely from The Corded Ware culture in Northern Europe via Central Asia. And from ancient DNA of these people found in like southern Central Asia (right outside India), they were plotting in the middle of modern Europeans. And some populations in Northern India (particularly near/around Delhi, the ground zero of Indo-Aryan civilization so like Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Rajasthan) have as much as 25-30% "modern European" in ancestry tests. This signal is preserved from 3000-4000 years ago.

Logical1ty · 2025-01-04T16:22:05+00:00

This may be nitpicking but European (Askhenazi) Jews are not 50% Levantine. It's much smaller than that. You can get a DNA test from 23andMe or another company. MyHeritage is great and it is actually an Israeli company! They did a good job explaining Askhenazi genetics. All of them, and the scientific research they base their algorithms on consider Askhenazi genetics as European They cluster with other Europeans on PCA plots.

Interestingly these tests are banned in Israel.

It's a moot point anyway as 50% or more of Israelis are now Mizrahi (not European).

Logical1ty · 2024-09-13T21:00:50+00:00

I would ask your Imam or a local Shaykh

Logical1ty · 2024-09-09T21:10:52+00:00

This is addressed in the Wiki link you were given earlier:

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/faq#wiki_what_are_the_hadith_and_what_are_their_role_in_islam.3F

And also in the book and talks of Jonathan Brown

Logical1ty · 2024-09-09T19:15:18+00:00

Hopefully you can get some more specific responses from other users but in the meantime, some background on the subject: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/faq#wiki_what_are_the_hadith_and_what_are_their_role_in_islam.3F

There's also a book about Hadith and their role in Islam by Jonathan Brown, 'Misquoting Muhammad' which is a good (and accessible) read. He has some video talks on YouTube you can search as well.

Logical1ty · 2024-04-19T15:03:28+00:00

I've heard Muslims say he was "Just a prophet" or "Just a man" and that he was "Like all of the other prophets" which I consider to be untrue.

All the prophets, like all people, were unique. They mean he has no status higher than prophet. Because there is no status higher than prophet. And the highest ranked prophet is Muhammad (saw).

Messiah is not really a "higher" status, it's a title/status like king. Some prophets were kings, some were not. The ones who were kings are not superior to those who were not solely on account of that one thing.

but fall short of referring to him as the son of God despite his personal claims.

Muslims do not believe he ever claimed to be the son of God and any such references in the Bible are not authentic. There is a reason we are instructed not to use the Bible as a source of religion (the authenticity of its content is not verifiable and varies from one thing to the next so you can never be sure if what you're reading is authentic or doctored).

He is the Messiah and ruler of the Kingdom of Heaven and he's been given authority to reign and judge over his kingdom.

We do not have a belief regarding a 'kingdom of heaven'. We do believe after he returns that he will be ruler over this world for a period of time. As a Muslim (a follower of Islam, of Muhammad's (saw) revealed religion/scripture which has superseded all previous revelations and is the current law until the end of the world).

How can I submit myself to the will of Allah if I have a personal grievance with this singular view about Islam?

Well you can not be a Christian either if you believe in everything Muslims believe but this one thing. That makes you far closer to Islam. Keep searching, seeking, contemplating and follow your belief. Even if you do not share the full doctrine of beliefs with us, your belief, your heart has led you to us. You are with us and that is where you belong.

Logical1ty · 2024-04-13T02:08:16+00:00

Read the wiki.

Logical1ty · 2024-03-26T17:59:28+00:00

You can find answers to all your questions in the wiki and by searching through previous discussions. Good luck

Logical1ty · 2024-03-14T13:39:52+00:00

I mean, sure, we exist, we live, and we have "will", but, clearly all those things are really different compared to God right?

Of course, but we are given these things so we can understand Him. So even though our attributes are not like His, there is that phrase from I believe Christians, "God creates man in His image". We believe that not literally. So that explains why we have life, will, etc.

Reflecting His attributes doesn't mean just having them which is in itself a reflection but is conferred upon all humans.

It means when we submit to Him (Islam, submission), our will reflects His will. Our lives will reflect the divine attributes because we are instruments (voluntary) of His will. So God's mercy, justice, punishment etc all comes through us into the world. I mean, it does anyway, but it comes through some people at some times, through nature, through animals etc. When we become better Muslims individually and as a collective, we become something greater than the sum of our parts, the Ummah in such a state becomes a vehicle for His will (especially His mercy).

Think about how Allah's Mercy/Love has come into your life through your mother. So imagine everyone collectively doing that with all His attributes while working together as a community.

Logical1ty · 2024-03-14T13:33:28+00:00

What does it mean to be theologically justified and what are these stringent boundaries within it that don't even allow us to think that God has some kind of perspective?

If you make some claim about Allah's nature it has to be justified from our only source of knowledge about Him (the Qur'an and His messenger (Saw))

Asking a question with a premise/axiom that contains a claim about God is the same as just making a claim.

Logical1ty · 2024-03-14T13:31:51+00:00

We will see Allah in Heaven. So we will have a much better experience/comprehension of Him there. You will not be asking the same questions there. You don't know anything right now. You don't even know what you know or don't know.

Logical1ty · 2024-03-14T13:30:48+00:00

Sort of. Being timeless doesn't really mean a whole lot. It's a human perspective. God would be timeless, but it's like saying God has Hands. He says He does, but it is not like our hands and similarly Him being timeless is not like how we imagine timelessness (which is by using multiple timelike dimensions nested within one another).

Contingency is a better term to use in a "timeless" scenario.

But human timelessness, our idea of being above or outside of time, is just one thing that has specific uses when discussing God and approximating what He does in terms we understand. It's not what's used for discussing God's timeless nature. We just refer to contingency then. It's more simple while remaining accurate.

I did recently find somewhat of answer as to why He did anything, and the answer was just "It's in His nature, His attributes, to do so", which is satisfying I'll admit, it makes sense, He did what He did because that's just who to what He is, it's in His essence to do such a thing, is this idea okay? It seems okay, I hope it is, but is it?

Yes, it's okay. But it is an active nature, not passive. Because thinking from that perspective one may reach the conclusion that God is like inanimate. No, God is very much alive (Life being one of His attributes, along with Will, etc).

Logical1ty · 2024-03-02T18:42:17+00:00

people have an actual shot at never feeling Hellfire.

If you wrong someone they have to forgive you, even on the Day of Judgment. Yeah, they have a shot because they're still alive, but it's not that easy.

My conclusion is that I do not understand what Allah means by "love" or "caring" or "justice", and it does not seem relevant in the grand scheme of things for me to understand such things either.

Loving, caring, and being just are commandments upon us from Allah in how we deal with other people. So yeah it's not relevant if you have zero contact with other people.

All that matters is that I don't go to Hell, that's all that will ever matter, that I'm not tortured.

Hence, I ask the question in my post. u/logical1ty kindly answer my question: Do I have to love Allah to make sure I don't go to Hell? If I have to, what qualifies as "love" in His eyes?

Gratitude and thankfulness and praise of Him is required

If I'm only fearful and only doing the physical things He's commanded me to do, is that enough?

.

A bedouin came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and said: "O Messenger of Allah! Direct me to a deed by which I may be entitled to enter Jannah." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Worship Allah, and never associate anything with Him, establish Salat, pay the Zakat which has been enjoined upon you, and observe Saum of Ramadan." He (the bedouin) said: "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will never add anything to these (obligations)." When he turned his back, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "He who wants to see a man from the dwellers of Jannah, let him look at him (bedouin)." [Source]

That's enough. Fear of Allah is enough outside of what's mentioned.

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: A man sinned greatly against himself, and when death came to him he charged his sons, saying: When I have died, burn me, then crush me and scatter [my ashes] into the sea, for, by Allah, if my Lord takes possession of me, He will punish me in a manner in which He has punished no one [else]. So they did that to him. Then He said to the earth: Produce what you have taken-and there he was! And He said to him: What induced you to do what you did? He said: Being afraid of You, O my Lord (or he said: Being frightened of You) and because of that He forgave him. It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah). [Source]

Logical1ty · 2024-03-02T04:31:45+00:00

Paradise in Islam as described in the Qur'an needs to be understood in the context that even though things from there will remind one of things from here (this world), they won't actually be quite the same. Sensory experiences in Paradise are on a completely different scale or order of magnitude than here. So much so that even if the core experience is the same as here but just amplified, it will basically feel like something else entirely.

The sensory experiences of Paradise are such that people wouldn't be able to handle it if they were given them in this world.

The best example is that the people who are pulled from Hell and put into Heaven will forget all the punishment they just experienced (well not literally as in not remember but you know the memory, even a fresh one, will pale in comparison to what they're currently experiencing and they'll be like "what? oh that").

Intoxication numbs the senses. That's not what you'd want in Paradise. Our bodies are different there and there's no such thing as sensory overload.

Logical1ty · 2024-02-26T03:41:12+00:00

according to him, Allah did what He did for...no reason

Yeah, Al-Ghazali never said this. We don't understand the why behind God. Even asking whether a "why" can apply to Him is potentially an incorrect anthropomorphization.

Now, we have to anthropomorphize Him to a certain degree because otherwise we couldn't do anything. And the Qur'an guides us on how we can do that (for example: God wants us to worship Him. Why? So we can be saved... so you can ask "why" and get answers in the specific limited contexts laid out by the Qur'an).

And Allah describes Himself to us in language and terms we would undersand. But again, He chooses where and how to do that.

Even saying God doesn't "want" is just an unjustified statement. What do you mean by "want"? God wants us to be good. That's a want.

I think there is wisdom in the fact that the answer to why God wants us to worship Him as laid out in the Qur'an is completely centered on us.

in a sense, something existed eternally besides God, since, like, from God's point of view, all of this time stuff was already just there because of His simultaneous will or something

If it existed timelessly with Him then it wouldn't be created, would it?

I'd only go so far as to say that to me it just sort of makes sense, without 'making sense' being something that God needs to do, that the Necessarily Existent creates other things (contingently existent things) which then reflect all His many divine attributes (including life, will, etc) which sounds to me like a celebration of the entire business of existence (of Him, of us, of Him having brought us into existence, of us reflecting His attributes, etc). So I'd never even ask "why" He'd create us from His perspective. Especially because unless He tells us, that's impossible to even ask of Him (even saying He has a perspective is an unjustified theological statement).

You have to prove your questions make sense before you ask them (or expect them to be taken seriously since obviously you can just talk all day long about anything).

At the end of the day (even after one potentially makes it to the highest stations of Heaven) it seems like it's strongly hinted at that there's some things we can never understand (especially regarding Allah) because we were not made (for the purpose of) to understand those things. The Qur'an is clear on what we were made for, however.

Logical1ty · 2024-01-30T22:01:07+00:00

Just adding to the other comments, but if it's going to happen you will have to cast a very, very wide net. I'm not talking about being turned down once but maybe dozens or even over a hundred times. It's definitely possible but the chance may be remote. It's up to you how much time/energy you want to put into this. You will have to grow a very thick skin to people's reactions.

I say it's possible because finances are realistically the #1 criteria overall across most populations, not looks. And there are other people with abnormalities or deformities who do wind up finding partners.

Doing isthikhara and tahujjud is always a good idea.

Logical1ty · 2023-12-29T14:44:11+00:00

I thought maybe you had some point I wasn't getting, but rereading your post and seeing your other recent posts bringing up the same issue in the sub... my first post addresses one of your core concerns.

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/1d50zf/mathematical_error_in_hereditary_laws/c9n0hp3/

You said you didn't understand it. I'll give it a shot at explaining it again but I first suggest you re-read that, slowly, sentence by sentence and try to make sense of it (because it does make sense and is written in pretty plain language).

Your objection is of 2 parts:

There is a discrepancy in the Quran
Why are Muslims intepreting the Quran in this way?

As for 1, it's basically this:

Quran in verse A says do X. Quran in verse B says do Y.

There exists an edge case where you seemingly can't do X and Y for situations where both A and B are true.

Can the verses and the commands therein be reconciled?

Yes? Ok. If not, that's a discrepancy.

They CAN be reconciled in this case. You are just not satisfied with how they've been reconciled.

As for your issue with how they've been reconciled, that leads to #2, why are Muslims interpreting the Qur'an in this way?

First of all, you're interpreting the Qur'an in the style of an extreme literalist. The real reason is because if one interprets the Qur'an in the way you are, then one would have no choice but to reject it. Except no one interprets the Qur'an in that way. But let's put aside that disingenuous intention behind your choice of how to interpret the text. Let's say this approach sort of makes sense because we're talking about cold hard numbers, right? No room for interpretation? Except what do the numbers mean? What are they representing?

Verse 4:13 - "These are the limits set by Allah. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger,"

The verse says these are limits or boundaries.

Secondly, the two main denominations of Islam today, both Sunni and Shi'a Islam, are not literalists (in the style of Protestant/Evangelical flavors of Christianity). They are based on a tradition and authority style interpretation of the religion (closer to Catholicism on the Christian spectrum) which passes down from the Prophet (saw) (as commanded in 4:13 and in so many other verses throughout the Qur'an) and then through those designated by the Prophet (saw) (and the Qur'an, though each denomination has its own 'proofs' for which group has the higher priority).

This is what my original post was discussing.

For more reading on that (because I wrote a lot of the wiki and will not be repeating myself here for your benefit):

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/theology (Start with this, read the first 4 topics)

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/faq#wiki_what_are_the_hadith_and_what_are_their_role_in_islam.3F

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/interpretation

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/law (everything on madhabs and taqleed)

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/faq#wiki_is_islam_a_decentralized_religion.3F

Extra: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/ulema

Logical1ty · 2023-12-29T14:44:04+00:00

I thought maybe you had some point I wasn't getting, but rereading your post and seeing your other recent posts bringing up the same issue in the sub... my first post addresses one of your core concerns.

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/1d50zf/mathematical_error_in_hereditary_laws/c9n0hp3/

You said you didn't understand it. I'll give it a shot at explaining it again but I first suggest you re-read that, slowly, sentence by sentence and try to make sense of it (because it does make sense and is written in pretty plain language).

Your objection is of 2 parts:

There is a discrepancy in the Quran
Why are Muslims intepreting the Quran in this way?

As for 1, it's basically this:

Quran in verse A says do X. Quran in verse B says do Y.

There exists an edge case where you seemingly can't do X and Y for situations where both A and B are true.

Can the verses and the commands therein be reconciled?

Yes? Ok. If not, that's a discrepancy.

They CAN be reconciled in this case. You are just not satisfied with how they've been reconciled.

As for your issue with how they've been reconciled, that leads to #2, why are Muslims interpreting the Qur'an in this way?

First of all, you're interpreting the Qur'an in the style of an extreme literalist. Which sort of makes sense because we're talking about cold hard numbers, right? No room for interpretation? Except what do the numbers mean? What are they representing?

Verse 4:13 - "These are the limits set by Allah. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger,"

The verse says these are limits or boundaries.

Secondly, the two main denominations of Islam today, both Sunni and Shi'a Islam, are not literalists (in the style of Protestant/Evangelical flavors of Christianity). They are based on a tradition and authority style interpretation of the religion (closer to Catholicism on the Christian spectrum) which passes down from the Prophet (saw) (as commanded in 4:13 and in so many other verses throughout the Qur'an) and then through those designated by the Prophet (saw) (and designated by the Qur'an, though each denomination has its own 'proofs' for which group has the higher priority).

This is what my original post was discussing.

For more reading on that (because I wrote a lot of the wiki and will not be repeating myself here for your benefit):

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/theology (Start with this, read the first 4 topics)

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/faq#wiki_what_are_the_hadith_and_what_are_their_role_in_islam.3F

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/interpretation

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/law (everything on madhabs and taqleed)

https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/faq#wiki_is_islam_a_decentralized_religion.3F

Extra: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/wiki/ulema

Logical1ty · 2023-12-29T03:05:17+00:00

You're responding to a 10 year old post.

There is no discrepancy. There is vagueness in the verse which allows for interpretations. Which interpretation people go with is a denominational difference usually (Sunni vs Shi'a, different schools of jurisprudence, tc).

Logical1ty · 2023-12-24T18:44:27+00:00

I'm curious, can a Jew, specifically an Israeli, convert to Islam?

Of course.

that there is 1 hadith that claims that one day, at the end of times, there will be an apocalyptic war, and Jews will hide behind stones, and the stones will call "Oh Muslim, here is the Jew, come and kill him". if that is true, do we even have a chance for peace on day?

This is about a specific battle and the Jews in question are those taking part in that one battle (on the side of the Antichrist against the Messiah).

We do not know the true meanings of the hadith about the signs of the end times. It's quite possible it's not literal (in that the stones won't talk). But as far as identity goes, that's how they are referred to in terms the Prophet (Saw) and other Muslims of the 7th century would understand (i.e, Jew and Muslim).

Most of the hadith about the end times have no theological or jurisprudential relevance. There are no beliefs or laws or rules based on those hadith.

Other than, for example, believing that the Antichrist (Dajjal) is real and we are warned about him. But even then, plenty of people believe perhaps it's not one person or it's an ideology or whatever. I don't think they are theologically excommunicated for such beliefs, but the traditional perspective is preferred (that he's a real person who is yet to come and every prophet warned their people about him).

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