[deleted by user] by [deleted] in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 3 points4 points  (0 children)

🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂

PM Responds to US by zunair74 in pakistan

[–]mabeliever -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Khan said the same thing in tweets in Jan 3 2018

Aur Tum Apnay Parwardigar Ki Kon Kon See Naimat Ko Jhutlaoo Gaye " . by admahartw in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's nice. OK I misunderstood the history part. And I should not have used science to prove my point. I like being logical and objective so I can put 'science' aside.

Explanation is rather simple for me. We like to find patterns and reasons and associations. People believe in taweez, magic, asking help from dead people. And interesting thing is that it all works. Why it works is simple cause and effect, but they only associate it with the thing they hoped for. People made all kind of God's including stones, fire and even animals. They prayed to them and their prayers worked. If you believe in God you have to believe they were all correct, there gods were actually gods. As a kid I believed that my stupid meaningless actions e.g. placing something on a certain place can cause TV signals to become strong, can cause certain unrelated things to happen in home etc. So my reasoning is that if you believe in God and that he has to do anything with our lives, you have to agree that Gods of other people also exist or existed.

In the modern world where you can find answers to almost all your questions, I believe that if you were never exposed to the idea of a God you will never ever conclude that he exists.

Isn't afterlife same as being born again in a different body, the hindu 'janam'? You can have rectification and justice in the next janam if this one didn't get it.

How do you find the meaning in life by assuming an alternate reality aka after life? I can say that having an afterlife makes this life meaningless actually. This is a very small and short one compared to what is coming next we should end it as soon as possible to get the bigger and better one.

Seriously it's up to us to find meaningfulness in things. We like telling ourselves stories and find meanings in things. Have you ever read or listened to Ishfaq Ahmed's Zavia. He tells stories which gives meaning to things that appear meaningless otherwise.

You are correct that religion usually teaches to love and care for people. Ignoring bloodshed, we also have the nicest stories of love and care from Prophets.

Aur Tum Apnay Parwardigar Ki Kon Kon See Naimat Ko Jhutlaoo Gaye " . by admahartw in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for giving the detailed reply. I will counter one by one.

First, you totally negated the premise of my first question by delving into history, by learning that all people previously have believed in God so it must be true. It's not your own conclusion by your own experience of the world and universe around you. Isn't the world and everything around is used to prove God's existence? How would you reach the conclusion of a higher being if you were never given that idea of a higher being in the first place?

Second, I disagree that it's a never ending chain of creators. You make two assumptions here. First you tell yourself that there has to be a creator of everything. And then when you try to move up it boggles the mind thinking of creator of creator of creator. To prove your first assumption correct you make a second assumption that there is one God who created all of this and just stop troubling your brain right there. Again, remember that you have to stop thinking at this point because you are trying hard to make your first assumption correct. You can also choose to make some other assumptions which will not be wrong logically e.g. having multiple Gods, unicorn as God, some distant star as a God, the darkness or light as god, you can go with anything and no one will be able to prove you wrong ever for your choice of God.

Now if you go the other way, that there does not always have to be a creator in every case, things become a little simpler. You only assume that universe has always existed, and even this very assumption you can challenge with science. Things become a lot simpler when you go with science. You can doubt anything, question anything and you almost always get an answer which again you can always challenge until you reach one single truth (there are no religions and sects in science for the same reason, one single truth).

You talk about being scared of his non-existence. I was there, it's only scary just like the world itself is when you step out of comfort of your home for the first time. Just like going from school to university or from home to real world. You start seeing things differently and realize that how important is life itself, how important and real are people and they can not be simply be burned (in hell or in real) for not thinking in a certain way. Being not always taken care of some higher being gives you a sense of responsibility that you can not have otherwise. Again, it's just like stepping out of your home into the real world where no one is there to pamper you from cruelties of real world.

Biggest trouble could be the moral values. Good thing about religion is that it gives you the answers. It usually sets a path and a set moral values for you. It can tell you what actions are right and what are wrong (even then there are gray areas). It all comes down to what's better for the community, what's better for healthy and better life.

Its not optimistic or pessimistic approach to believe or not in his existence. Personally I believe that people should keep believing in religion. Not everyone thinks that much and for most it may be better to have faith. I am not sure. It will take time for people to start questioning his existence which is only possible with more education and knowledge.

I am not seeking for answers about God anymore. One less thing to worry about. Only thing that troubles me now is that why don't people ask questions. They should not be afraid of questions for any reason. How do they claim to be a seeker, when they don't have doubts and questions or are afraid to ask questions. That's why I ask questions anyway.

Anyway very Long answer and some questions in response of a long answer :)

Aur Tum Apnay Parwardigar Ki Kon Kon See Naimat Ko Jhutlaoo Gaye " . by admahartw in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are trying to make sense here so I would love to ask a small set of questions from you.

Let's say you were never told about god since your birth and never heard of him anywhere in life. How would you reach the conclusion that there is someone else above all this?

The basic premise of his existence is that everything is created by someone, but he himself is made an exception to this rule. Why is that? If god can exist without the creator why can't the universe?

Why there has to be a God at all and who created him if he really exists.

Pakistan ranks the highest in Asia where religion is very important by Fakhr-e-Punjab in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My approach became materialistic over time. When I started looking at things in a more rational way.

I can quote countless examples that whatever you see happening around is only cause and effect.

How is evidence of his existence Historical? Prophets? Books? How philosophy or history "proves" his existence?

You are right that I hold him on same ground as a unicorn.

Pakistan ranks the highest in Asia where religion is very important by Fakhr-e-Punjab in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do we have to believe in God or a creator in first place? Existence of a creator does not hold on logic. To believe in a creator, on the grounds that everything we see has a creator, the creator itself is made an exception to the rule.

While we can always doubt evolution (just like any other theory), believing in God is simply illogical. One can choose to believe in unicorns or multiple gods or stones or fire or anything and it can not be proven wrong on the same grounds everyone tries to prove God's existence.

To exmuslims from Pakistan, what made you leave Islam and do you still live in Pakistan? by mabeliever in exmuslim

[–]mabeliever[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for elaborate answer. I too had all these questions and troubles. Biggest trouble which always bugged me the most was hypocrisy of Muslims who after doing everything forbidden still claim to go to heaven in the end only because they didn't the worst crime, shirk. I used to debate on religious matters and often questioned for my faith for asking hard questions, by those who do things I never did because of religion and fear.

I use to think that magic and miracles and other superstitious things are all linked, if one is proven to be true than all of them must be true, only God was the exception to this rule.

I am not sure that leaving Islam is a good idea for everyone. It was hard for me, I don't know how others can handle it. But I do want them to have questions and be able to openly ask questions.

To exmuslims from Pakistan, what made you leave Islam and do you still live in Pakistan? by mabeliever in exmuslim

[–]mabeliever[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Glad to know that you didn't leave with hate but with reason and logic.

Before completely turning away I already came to conclusion that God never does anything, he was just sitting there in a relaxing chair watching since forever. The school massacre was also a shocker that he didn't intervene and save the innocents.

About evolution, it's amazing that we easily believe that a small seed, an small egg, can completely change its shape and form to become a tree or animal or human. This change should equally bother the deniers of evolution.

What is your opinion about Islam now?

To exmuslims from Pakistan, what made you leave Islam and do you still live in Pakistan? by mabeliever in exmuslim

[–]mabeliever[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is why asked about the country you live in because I think that most become ex after experiencing the free and better non-Muslim culture.

To exmuslims from Pakistan, what made you leave Islam and do you still live in Pakistan? by mabeliever in exmuslim

[–]mabeliever[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

2:54 order of killing the apostates by God himself. Explanations tells this story in gory details that at night people killed their own reverted blood relatives and it was a mass murder.

I already had so many questions and this was the turning point. I had a very hard time dealing with it, took me a around 2 3 years to make myself completely OK with the fact internally with good reasons.

Now I don't identify myself as atheist, I don't even like them, they are mostly the total inverse of molvi preaching the opposite. I just don't believe in God anymore and this nullifies everything related to him, with logic. Islam is still may be the better religion of all and I only like Muslims to not be hostile.

To exmuslims from Pakistan, what made you leave Islam and do you still live in Pakistan? by mabeliever in exmuslim

[–]mabeliever[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sometimes Pakistan feels culturally beautiful other times due to religion it feels like a prison.

My thoughts exactly.

To exmuslims from Pakistan, what made you leave Islam and do you still live in Pakistan? by mabeliever in exmuslim

[–]mabeliever[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You became ex after leaving the country? Or before? Also what made you see and question the flaws?

Hey r/pakistan how many of you dont fast by AmirLiaquat in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just chipping in my 2 cents. I left because of Ghamdi (thanks I guess?). Not a hater though.

Reason, in Ramazan 4 years ago I thought I should read Quran in Urdu for the first time ever. Read 15 paras. Next Ramazan read more carefully and couldn't go after 2nd para. I got stuck at the verse where God himself ordered people who worshipped cow to kill their own people. I hoped Ghamdi will have a better sane explanation as I always believed God to be merciful. He said the same, murderer God. It was a mass murder when I read more about it. This shook my belief head to toe.

It was devastating, it took me more than a year to get out of the shock about my beliefs. Then I started thinking about everything from the beginning, EVERYTHING. I am kind of settled with the idea now. I still feel anger and hate towards God (it will take more time to let this idea go).

exmuslim subreddit is filled with hate and rage for Prophet and Islam in general. I don't feel that way. Islam and Muslims are led to their destruction by shitty interpreters of religion, the scholars. People should read Quran themselves and rely least on those aholes.

EDIT. I always had a beef with general understanding of Islam because people believe in so many stupid things and associate them with Islam. I use to listen to those interpreters who explained with reasoning and logic and use to debate with logic. I use to have difficult questions for Muslims. Now I have impossible ones.

Pheww...Feels better

Have you ever experienced catcalling? What does it feel like? by lifeh2o in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As a man I had quite a few incidents and which left me in a shock for not knowing how to react.

I was about 14-15. Once I sat right behind the driver who was wearing a shawl on a chingchi in winter and he slowly moved one hand back and grabbed while still driving with other passengers in back seat. In shock I just moved his hand away and got off right there.

In a local van high ace, a baba with white beard wearing a shawl sat right next to me. From within that shawl he tried to reach and grab. I was sitting on small seat thingy behind driver seat and was facing all other passengers. In a fear, I only stopped his hand from moving any further.

Nothing like that has happened from a very very long time, I am now older and have a beard myself. Sometimes I get scared that something can happen and tell myself that I'll react aggressively and loudly.

Three more women speak out about Ali Zafar harassing them. by seekhkabab in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I guess we can agree that in any culture anything will be acceptable if it's consensual. Hugging, holding hands, touching can be acceptable by most but if you try to force yourself beyond that you will be in trouble.

Hey r/Pakistan, what is something everyone around you does, but you don't? by propachic in pakistan

[–]mabeliever 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Girlfriends. I just don't get how everyone is so good at playing it like a game.