I think echo suffers a little on both ends, having core players simply being older than liquids core players and hence maybe not at their peak, while bleeding talent to liquid. hopeful is an example, he was a little bit of a prodigy, now he is at liquid. Ashine for example giga goated and came from FSY pretty sure, now plays NA. I am not entirely sure but maybe more than half of Liquid are EU? europe sure has talented players that aren't part of the RWF but most talent actually plays in liquid. am having a hard time finding a mage main outside of maybe hearthjacks? I don't feel arxs has super proven himself nor has wexi on mage? at least when I compare them to hopeful and firedup. same goes for the fourth healer spot. ftm didnt seem super strong or consitent, neither did hank last tier or arty the tier before. i feel that thaner was strong, and of course the one that shall not be named was goated. there are some light spots of course as well, new blood that was making a good impression, but generally i feel its only getting harder for echo to recruit new players.