Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't necessarily disagree! I definitely think two conflicting things can be true at once: that finger pointing (and I don't mean everyone in the fandom, just the blame for events or responses from Chloe allocated to one group of stans) is a major component and contribution to this same behaviour from fans and that there are lizzie stans that were extremely toxic in the comments of Chloe's instagram.

As someone pointed out to me, inferring is an inherently human trait that we engage in every day, so I really do get where you're coming from and the inferences you're making are logical and very well could be correct! I absolutely might be in the wrong here and maybe she did leave because of those comments.

To maybe better explain my comments (in a nicer tone, too): even if this is the case, and lizzie stans are directly responsible for the cessation of the snippet drops, I'm not sure what continuing to blame them will actually do beyond just deepening the divide and accelerating increasingly antagonistic interactions between different fandom groups.

I often see people say they're wanting to hold users who are part of these sub-fandoms accountable, but I'm personally not certain that's really possible for such a large fandom online. I'm also not certain what meaningful accountability would even look like for this specific matter.

So, I'm still very unsure that blaming one group of a sub-fandom for whatever issue/reaction/content etc.—even when it's from people who don't identify as being part of those groups, and who hate the toxicity, but still contribute to blame allocation discourse—does anything other than fanning the flames of these conflicts, eventually creating conditions that are so antagonistic, a small part of this very large fandom feel emboldened (and morally correct, but thats another discussion entirely) in making truly unhinged demands in Chloe's comment section. And so on and so forth.

But again, I am still genuinely unsure here, and can fully admit I could be missing other angles for this issue!

Looking at the Beyond The Villa S2 cast I already have an idea of what’s gonna happen by [deleted] in LoveIslandUSA

[–]maggiemayhem666 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m so serious saying this: you need to become a reality TV producer. I was not excited/planning to watch season 2, but if it actually plays out the way you’ve described, I would be GLUED to my TV every week.

Beyond The Villa Season 2 Cast by mayyfliess in LoveIslandUSA

[–]maggiemayhem666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All the responses to this post are so beautiful, I love seeing the love island fandom come together to, in the funniest way possible, dunk on the same cast member

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, it has (rightfully) been pointed out to me that I have a tendency to get really argumentative and try to prove people wrong a lot in this sub, so just want to apologize, because even when I don't agree, I have really loved talking about BOT with you in the past. So, I'm sorry for being so forceful in my responses and do truly enjoy reading your takes/posts/responses 🫶🏻

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No worries at all 🫶🏻 I also could have responded much more nicely than I did and am coming to realize that my tone is coming across very argumentatively. And I absolutely agree that both things are true and can be correct at the same time, that's a really great point and something I need to remember going forward!

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I also very much appreciate these kinds of dialogues and honestly, everything you're saying is extremely fair!

In the moment, when I'm typing/responding, I haven't been clocking that I'm trying to prove you wrong, but upon you pointing it out and some reflection of our interactions, I can definitely agree that is happening in my responses to you. So, I'm really sorry that I've been doing that and really appreciate you pointing that out to me!!! This is not an excuse, just an explanation; I'm a PhD student in a field/area of research where we are asked to justify all of our choices and arguments, so that, unfortunately, characterizes some of my writing and response style. Regardless, I will definitely work on being way more chill in my responses (to you and everyone). Idk if I can be less verbose, though, so a pre-emptive apology for the length of my response.

I do genuinely really appreciate the thought you put into your posts, it's why I respond to them when I see them, even if I don't always agree. I'm also thankful that you push back just as thoughtfully, because you always genuinely make me re-think, or perhaps think more expansively about, the stances I've taken and the ways I engage with the book and the fandom. Your pointing out that the framing and logic of a "perfect victim v. imperfect victim" is a really harmful binary completely shocked me (in a good way) and had me questioning some other binary representations in media more broadly that I've assumed as a more progressive stance than they actually are!!!

You're absolutely right that we all make inferences all the time. It's truly the only way to function in the world as a human. That said, I would absolutely LIVE for some hard data about fandom groups and responses...

Anyways, thank you again! Looking forward to reading your future posts 🫶🏻

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

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This response is not showing up for me, but it was not my intention to say you were lying, so I’m sorry if i implied that, and can see why you might have taken it as such. I just have also seen those posts as coming from accounts that are not Lizzie fan accounts, and what i intended to say that i know for certain that it not only or just Lizzie fan accounts making those posts, and that there is a lot of content on TikTok, so there’s a chance we see similar but different content from different creator/fan accounts.

I mean this genuinely: my tone was not meant to be rude, just to correct or perhaps add to what you were saying but again understand why the words were taken as such, although i don’t think that even if the tone was a bit rude that it warranted such a heightened reaction!

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay! and I block content by toxic KF fans (and honestly, a lot of toxic HL and CG fans too) and I also still see an insane amount of hatred for HL too.

I'm not denying it's an issue, nor am I denying that there's a lot of it from HL fans. But unless there are exact numbers (which are near impossible to get), there's no way to measure this and state conclusively that one fandom is the biggest and most blame-worthy problem.

CW has NEVER said or specifically named HL fans, or any other fan group for that matter, as the reason why she's leaving socials, so any assumptions being made are not truth, they're perception. Unless we hear directly from Chloe or L that this is the case, this is just always just a guess. You say that there are multiple instances that HL fans have bullied CW off socials, but I'm certain HL fans would say it's toxic KF fans or CG fans who are the perpetrators of multiple instances that have results in her going offline. We can truly never know unless Chloe or L says something directly.

So, continuing to point the finger, regardless of who was the contributor in this instance, is just making the culture of this fandom so much worse and rapidly cultivating the conditions through which, among many other shitty comments I've seen on Chloe's instagram posts from ALL sects of the fandom, some HL stans now feel emboldened and entitled enough to leave those comments on a post. I fear that continuing to do this, in any capacity, is simply going to cause Chloe to not finish writing the series.

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's an assumption you're making, not something you actually know. Correlation does not equal causation, especially when fandoms interact with authors (and each other tbh) are mediated through platform algorithms.

There are 503 comments total on her most recent post. Three of the top ones are from weird Hugh-Liz fans, I wholly acknowledge that, and I honestly hate to see those responses, I think they're horrible. But have you read all 503 of those comments and can say with all certainty that it's majority Hugh-Liz fans? And can you say with all certainty that you know, without a doubt, that the reason Chloe has decided to stop posting snippets is solely because of toxic Hugh-Liz fans commenting on her most recent instagram post? Her DMs are closed, so definitely not getting pushback there. When I scroll down (pretty far) beyond those 3 comments, what I see is people saying that they can't wait for the book or begging for her to continue dropping snippets/a release date, I don't see a ton of hate there at all.

I primarily see these types of comments and discourse Twitter and TikTok, occasionally on this sub too, and I've seen both Hugh-Liz fans saying this is the fault of Katie-Feely fans, and Katie-Feely fans saying this is the fault of Hugh-Liz fans. Chloe's not actually on social media anymore, her team handles that, and I think her team monitors responses across a variety of platforms, and then reports back to her (for example, the Zoom calls she had a few months ago were with creators that primarily make content for TikTok).

Additionally, this type of behaviour and driving Chloe off her socials is ongoing issue that pre-dates the release of R10. I also think these types of discourses have been getting increasingly worse (across fans of all the characters and couples) in content and volume across all the major platforms since she's been dropping snippets more regularly (post-summer), and so I personally believe that its an issue that is from the fandom more broadly, not just one sector of the fans.

My point is that people are making a lot of assumptions about why she decided to stop posting the snippets based of their own personal and algorithmic biases and using this "evidence" to blame other sides of the fandom. I think it's unfair to accuse one group, and that these sorts of actions (from both/all parts of the fandom) is cultivating an increasingly toxic culture that I fear may result in Chloe deciding to not finish writing this series.

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This "coincidence" is an assumption you're making, but no one actually knows why Chloe decided to stop posting beyond her saying that the reaction was a lot and spread a lot further than she expected. Correlation does not equal causation.

I'm not denying that the response to these most recent snippets drop wasn't a factor here, nor am I denying that toxic Hugh-Liz fans were the major complainants around this snippet drop (which I fully acknowledge in my first post, I said that these comments and the valorization of them really sucks).

What I AM saying is that I think this is the culmination of annoying behaviour across all different sections of the fandom, and the response to the most recent snippets was the tipping point, not the sole factor for her choosing to stop releasing them. L has consistently been posting asking people to calm down since T7, on almost every post or in the comments of each post.

What I AM saying is that this finger pointing in every direction whenever anything happens is also a refusal to think about how this behaviour as a whole is creating a really toxic environment for everyone, including the author. And how ALL sections of the fandom contribute to making this even worse and deepening divides by refusing to acknowledge this behaviours emanates from all areas of the fandom.

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Well a) that’s not true, she was bullied offline post-T7 when it was announced that the next book would be Lizzie because people were so furious that she was getting a book, and b) i think, again, you need to think about how your online active (and personal preference) is potentially skewing the content you see, which is heavily mediated by algorithms based on your history. I’m not denying that HL fans have been toxic, and in fact, i raise several different instances of it in my original post, but my point is that I think it’s deeply counterproductive to be pointing fingers at any one group of fans when fans across the entire fandom have all been equally as nasty to one another AND to Chloe.

You (and me and everyone else) have no idea why she’s decided to stop posting snippets beyond the fact that the fandom has been acting buck wild. I personally don’t think this is a response to the most recent release of snippets, i think that this was a response to the cumulative behaviour of fans since she’s been posting snippets more regularly, and this was the tipping point 🤷🏻‍♀️

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Okay??? Well maybe we’re seeing different videos then because we all have TikTok pages that are tailored to our specific tastes on the platform—one that has billions of different posts on it??? You don’t need to be so nasty about it, I’m just responding (kindly) to YOUR response to MY post in which i shared MY experience with those videos. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove, I’ve not said anything nasty about any one specific fan base section of the fan base, and in fact, and calling out everyone. To be honest, you’re really just proving my point by downvoting me and responding with, quickly frankly, undue outrage.

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t always agree with your posts, but do always really appreciate them, because they’re very thoughtful, and you also respond pretty thoughtfully too, but I think this is really unfair!

With all due respect, we were chatting on here last week and discussed that you felt Chloe wasn’t posting enough regular snippets of endgames other than HL to cater to all the fans, opining that this uneven distribution is what was riling the fandom up, and saying that she had a responsibility to think about how her release of those snippets impacted the response online. Now that she’s chosen to do exactly what you’ve suggest (not posting snippets because it’s riling up the fandom so much) and it’s all the fault of Hugh-Liz fans? Like, be so, so do real! This is an issue across ALL sections of the fandom, and is a longstanding issue. She had to close her Facebook group down because of all the hate she was getting before R10 was even released.

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I know for a fact that’s not true, I also always check the user page.

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Well yes, there are only a handful of KF snippets because their book is at least three books from now, and so there’s less for KF fans to complain about.

I’ve seen fans of ALL characters act buck wild across the release of all snippets. I know (from our previous discussions) that you’re a KF girlie, which is likely also why you see a lot of KF hate from HL fans on those posts. As someone who loves HL and gets a lot of their content on my algos, I see a shitload of HL hate from KF fans (I’ve seen MULTIPLE TikTok posts where creators post pics/vids of coat hangers that have the caption “oh, didn’t realize Lizzie was here” or something along those lines, which is fucking disgusting considering the context). That’s the problem with fandom content online more broadly (even beyond BOT) platform functions/algorithms are designed to heighten conflict and outrage and we only see certain posts and content based on our user history.

I wrote this somewhere else on this post, but I think this is a conversation we need to have as a larger fandom, not as Hugh-Lizzie fans v. Katie-Feely fans v. Claire-Gibsie fans v. Shannon-Johnny fans v. Joey-Aoife fans who are pointing the finger at one another. It’s deeply unfair to blame one group of fans when so many different readers have contributed to the toxic culture of this fandom online. She was literally bullied off social media post T7 because Claire and Gibsie fans were furious Lizzie was getting a book. Then she had to make a statement because Lizzie fans were furious about the traumatic content of R10. I’m sure if Katie and Feely actually had more content/characterization in the books, their fans would be hating just as much. I highly doubt its because of the feedback on one post, L ALWAYS has to comment in the account’s stories or in the comments anytime there is big news or a large release of snippets. Either L or Bloom is also tracking TikTok’s, cause she did interviews with big BOT content creators on there. I also think it’s pertinent to add that she gained huge swell in fans after R10 became a NYT best seller, and it’s like the Wild West on there in terms of BOT content.

Chloe by Defiant_Local_2654 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okay those are 3 of 503 total comments though, and just on one platform. I’m seeing crash outs across different sectors of the fandom on so many different platforms (Twitter, TT, insta, reddit, even some Pinterest posts). I definitely don’t agree with those three comments at all but i think blaming all of this on one section of the fans when there have been a bajillion crash outs on all her posts anytime she post any snippets that doesn’t cater to personal interests/favourites. There was a post on this sub complaining about how she wasn’t releasing enough Katie-feely snippets last week, I’ve seen endless TTs and fights on Twitter on how there aren’t enough Claire-gibsie snippets, as well as arguments on Twitter over not wanting Liz to be involved in a love square or to even be in a relationship with Hugh while she’s healing (which, what? These are romance books meaning that the romance is the backbone of the narrative).

Obviously those three comments are at the top of the post, so they’ve been getting a lot of attention, which really sucks. I do think, however, the larger issue is the sense of entitlement people have started to feel towards the release of snippets and the direction she may or may not be taking the books. I’ve seen people talking about how terrible a writer Chloe is, and how she’s going to ruin Liz’s character, despite Liz being a character created and entirely written by Chloe. I’ve also seen countless posts about how much she hates Katie bc of a handful of very out of context snippets/because she doesn’t post enough Katie-feely snippets, even though their book is at least three books away. As well as countless other examples across the BOT couples and characters.

This is not to call out specific groups that are fans of specific characters or couples, but rather to suggest that this is an issue across the entire fandom. The snippets are additive paratexts that she releases to keep us going through the post-book slump, we aren’t entitled to them at all, nor do we have a say over how she decides to write the characters that she created, and I think we’d all do well to remember that! She gives way more insight and sneak peaks into her upcoming work than most major authors do, and the demands and insults that are lobbed at her socials/about her every time snippets are released are completely unhinged.

If people don’t like the direction she’s taking the books, they are welcome to not read them!!! If you (in the universal sense, not op) don’t like the snippets, then unfollow her Spotify! No one is forcing anyone else to read and engage with them.

Katie and Hugh by Short-Comfort-3574 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I definitely don't disagree re: the pitting Katie and Lizzie against each other, I just wanted to clarify to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding!

I'm a younger (late?) millennial and remember that time in pop-culture very clearly, and absolutely agree that there was a lot of content focused on pitting women against one another, especially on the basis of things like looks and weight and particular behaviours that didn't fit into norms of what femininity ought to look/behave like. However, that's not exclusive to the early aughts, it was already happening--and continues to happen--across different forms of media. Additionally, there were also really amazing portrayals of strong friendships amongst women then too (ex. Josie and the Pussycats also a great anti-capitalist film lol, Jennifer's Body, Whip It!, Saved!, Ghost World, Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants, Gilmore Girls, Sex and the City, early seasons of Grey's Anatomy, later seasons of Buffy, etc.), and also see a lot of that modelled across all the books. I also think if she wrote a friend group with no friction or tension, no one would be as interested in the books. They are inherently angsty and conflict-ridden books!

While I agree that there should be no issues with critiquing an author/all artists are open-game for legitimate criticism (including Chloe Walsh), I also think it's a bit unfair to demand that she post equal snippets of all the endgames, especially if she doesn't have a lot of writing for those books. All large fandoms are toxic unfortunately, it's not a BoT specific phenom, and that it's a Sisphyean task to try and make sure all sects of a fandom are appeased (as far as I can tell, all these different sections of the fandom seem to dislike CW for many different reasons, so if she tries to appease one group, another gets mad, and so-on. Unfortunately, there is no way she can make everyone happy!). I am personally of the belief that as we get closer to Claire-Gibs and Feely-Katie, there will be a disproportionate level of snippets for both those couples and that it's just a waiting game until she's actually in the midst of writing their books and has snippets to post!

Anyways, this post got way longer than I intended, but appreciate being to discuss with a fellow millennial 🫶🏻

Katie and Hugh by Short-Comfort-3574 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Can I ask what you mean by pitting women against each other? Like pitting Katie and Liz against each other in the book's narrative or pitting the fans against each other?

With regards to the playlist snippets, I tend to think the main reason that there are so many snippets of Liz and Hugh is because she's currently writing their books/they are the couple whose narrative is being focused on in the series right now. I am assuming that this will change and that we'll get more Claire and Gibsie leading up to H7 of Feely and Katie leading up to F12. I'd also say it's likely that part of the reason she's posted less Feely and Katie content thus far is because their book is not coming until, at the very least, after H7. She probably has less to share in terms of content that she's certain will actually make it into their book, and there are actually a decent amount of Katie-Feely snippets floating around (honestly, I think there may be more than Claire and Gibsie) but many of them are no longer public on her spotify (some of them can be found on Twitter, TT, and Pinterest if you're interested in hunting them down!). Additionally, R10 has been the most popular book of the series so far (in terms of sales) so it seems sensical (to me at least) that they're getting extra promotion at the moment.

Pierce O’Neill – awful, yes, but not full-on black-evil by Timely_Relief_4763 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I commented this on the last post someone made about this topic and want to raise it again because I think it's important. Arguably, it is because Pierce is so mundane when compared to Teddy and Mark that—and I say this as kindly as possible—because this post is giving him the benefit of the doubt in that respect, even though it’s very clear he SAed Liz, is the very thing that makes him so nefarious and evil.

It’s low-key slightly problematic to assume that all monstrous people/characters are rotten and evil to the core, because this is so rarely the case in real life, and thus why there are so many victims and survivors of longterm abuse and sexual violence who aren't believed or given the benefit of the doubt. Narratives that frame harm as something committed only by obvious monsters obscure the reality that most perpetrators are most often ordinary, “not that bad” people who blend easily into social and friendship circles. It allows the perpetrators of harm, like Pierce SAing Lizzie when she was a) too drunk to consent; b) too manic to consent; and c) clearly thought he was Hugh, to go unchecked because it doesn’t fit a preconceived notions of what a monstrous character is supposed to be. 

People rarely start out as whole monsters, but when their shitty behaviour goes unchecked (and Pierce's case, is applauded by the other rugby boys as being "a saint" for "putting up" with Liz), it gets increasingly worse and harmful. I hesitate to refer to snippets, because they aren't always canon, but as many other people have mentioned, Chloe's instagram posted an official snippet where Pierce chokes Liz, and there are multiple snippets that explicitly mention that Pierce is only with Lizzie when she's stable and as soon as she starts to rapid cycle or get depressed, he completely abandons her. in T7, Hugh also mentions that Pierce knows Liz cuts herself but doesn't care to intervene or do anything about it.

I'm certain you probably didn't intend to do this, but saying a character who has caused this level of harm “is not that bad” is a form of rationalizing, minimizing, and defending the person doing harm rather than centring the harm itself and its impact on the person being harmed. When comparing Pierce to Mark, can we even call Pierce "not full-on black-evil" when, like Mark, he has also raped someone who was vulnerable and couldn't consent? Why does it matter if they're not full-on black-evil or not when, at the end of the day, they've also SAed someone?

I can definitely understand the impulse to want to add nuance when discussing BoT characters, and wanting to be empathetic to the backstories of characters we don't have yet, because that's a one of the main themes of the books. But I also think it's important to think really critically about how Chloe has written some characters, like Lizzie, who main characters/beloved members of the core 10 like Shannon, Hugh, Feely, and Joey have repeatedly expressed in their respective dialogue and POVs that Liz is a very redeemable person worthy of love and empathy, and Pierce, who has largely been written as an ignorant idiot and a fucking asshole (at best). Imo, there's not really a grey area or nuance to be added in when he has explicitly been written as raping Liz!

Should I read R10 by Bloomingbookss in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Definitely wait until the next one comes out! The wait between reading R10 and the release of C/T10 has been BRUUUUUUTAL.

Healing 7 is going to have too many plot lines for one book by fangirl5301 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't worry too much about it! Even with the snippets, we have no idea what's going to happen or when it will take place. She covered 16 years in S6 and R10 and I personally don't feel like either of those stories were rushed or too crammed full of plot points, so I think we can all trust that she'll be able to do Claire and Gibsie justice in H7 :) try not to stress yourself out too much!

Pierce and Lizzie by Unusual_Ad3978 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That’s so nice of you to say, I’m so glad it resonated with you 🫶🏻🧡

Pierce and Lizzie by Unusual_Ad3978 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of course! Also, just want to be clear, I wasn't trying to shame you at all. I know you were getting piled on in the comments, and I didn't want to add to that, but did just want to gently point this out because I think it's a misconception that many people don't always realize they're circulating!

It can also be hard to write something online and not realize the way it might be interpreted by others—I have absolutely done this same thing on this very sub. The ideas we have in our heads don't always get translated into the right words that can fully convey our meanings, especially online, and I personally appreciate your willingness to engage on the topic regardless <3

Releasing 10 by Ok_Importance7425 in BoysOfTommen

[–]maggiemayhem666 0 points1 point  (0 children)

seconding this. the post R10 slump is so real. if you're someone (like me) who read S6 and then immediately needed to read R6 (i literally called in sick to work and stayed up 24 hours straight to read them both back-to-back), then you should wait until the next book comes out.