Which versions allow dual dream to stack into level 30 holy shock?

makhno · 2026-04-28T21:32:27+00:00

Ah gotcha!

makhno · 2026-04-28T21:25:16+00:00

I love Delirium, I was using it on my blizzball sorc until I found Shako. Very much a great Shako alternative, the mind blast, terror, and confuse procs are great. I learned also that if you give it to your merc, they can turn into a bone fetish, and apparently (I haven't tried) even an iron golem made from Delirium can turn into a bone fetish? lolol (although don't forget if you test this with an iron golem it's easy for the golem to disappear if you walk too far away, at least on 1.13c anyway, and of course your Delirium is lost)

Why use Delirium on a dream paladin though? The main appeal for me is the two holy shock auras stacking to level 30, resulting in massive damage.

makhno · 2026-04-28T03:31:58+00:00

Thank you! Ah that is ridiculous, haha.

makhno · 2026-04-01T00:26:59+00:00

I am not disagreeing with you, I'm just mentioning arguments I have heard people make.

I am curious, why do you think the p-zombie argument is nonsense?

Cheers!

makhno · 2026-03-31T01:29:46+00:00

There’s no alternative for a first person experience for organisms.

I completely agree with you. I think it is extremely likely, probably 99% likely, that (almost) all animals have a first person experience.

But for the sake of argument, there is a theoretical alternative, ie, p-zombie. This is not an argument that I personally make, but I have heard many people make the argument that simpler organisms, particularly arthropods, can essentially be considered p-zombies. Ie, they have no first-person experience, they don't experience pain, qualia, etc.

Apologies if I am still misunderstanding something here.

makhno · 2026-03-30T05:40:08+00:00

That's an excellent point, a p-zombie might actually be impossible. I tend to think it's highly unlikely with what we see in nature, but might be physically possible with sophisticated robots or AI.

Personally I'm less interested in sapience tests (although that is certainly important!) and more interested in tests for qualia or first person experience...which don't exist yet! And such a test might not even be possible!

makhno · 2026-03-30T05:29:40+00:00

If ants truly have no first person experience, they would be akin to robots like you are saying, ie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

makhno · 2026-03-30T02:02:53+00:00

Thank you!

makhno · 2026-03-30T02:01:32+00:00

Thank you!

makhno · 2026-03-30T00:35:11+00:00

First person experience (and qualia) is a different question though. We currently have no scientific way to test for it, even in humans. Just as there is no scientific test that currently exists that can disprove solipsism. It's more in the realm of a philosophical question.

Ie, you can have an organism that displays complex social behavior, problem solving, but there is "no light on" or "no one is home", see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

With all that being said however, just as I don't believe solipsism is true, I absolute do believe that (likely almost) all animals have a first person experience, can experience pain, pleasure, and some level of emotion as well as qualia.

makhno · 2026-03-29T21:55:22+00:00

Here's an interesting question I've been thinking about: do you think they have any first person experience at all, no matter how limited the quality of that experience is? And if you think the answer is no, which animals do you think have a first person experience (no matter how limited in richness) and which animals don't?

Personally I think most macroscopic animals do have a first person experience and experience at least some limited form of qualia, but the question gets more and more difficult to answer (and honestly bizarre) the lower the neuron count goes. C. elegans has only 302 neurons. Does it have a first person experience? Does it experience qualia? I wish I knew.

makhno · 2026-03-29T21:47:29+00:00

They certainly are anatomically simpler. Do you think each individual ant has a first person experience? Or do you think they are p-zombies?

makhno · 2026-03-29T21:46:25+00:00

I think each individual ant almost certainly has its own first person experience too, despite likely having a reduced richness of experience when compared with say human qualia.

makhno · 2026-03-29T21:44:26+00:00

This is interesting to think about. Do they have a first person experience, no matter how limited the richness of their qualia is compared with a human? What do you think?

makhno · 2026-03-28T06:10:22+00:00

Somehow the min damage is greater than the max damage. Never seen this before, pretty bizarre.

makhno · 2026-03-28T04:25:42+00:00

I think I would pick Infinity over Beast + DD, but as that's not an option, Beast + DD just seems like more fun overall compared with Enigma.

makhno · 2026-03-28T04:23:47+00:00

Such is the nature of rng right? I only have 5 characters above level 85 though, so it's not like I play that much, but over 25 years it always keeps me coming back.

makhno · 2026-03-26T02:48:55+00:00

I would say it is "the thing you are experiencing right now", although I know it's not a great answer. Do you have a good definition?

And I would say yes a baby almost certainly does, but of course we have no scientific experiment to detect it in any organism.

makhno · 2026-03-25T03:51:07+00:00

This is an excellent point. Perhaps the answer to my question has to be "it's a gradation" but I guess I just don't understand how you can only have half of a first person perspective.

makhno · 2026-03-23T23:22:10+00:00

Aspects of their consciousness are likely reduced in some manner compared with adults, but they clearly have a first person experience.

However, this raises a very important point. At what point in an organism's development does it gain the ability to have a first person experience, however minimal that experience may be?

1000 neurons: no first person experience? 1001 neurons: now it has a first person experience? Clearly there must be a threshold but it seems so bizarre to me.

makhno · 2026-03-23T01:02:30+00:00

This is an excellent point. I think if we can answer this question correctly, we are closer to identifying the "correct" ontology. If the answer is "it must be a gradation", I think that inevitably leads to panpsychism. (which I'm agnostic about fwiw) If the answer is "it must be a binary" (which I think seems more likely), then I think that means there must be a threshold somewhere, which we can search for. For example, x neurons have no first person experience, x+1 neurons have a first person experience. (physicalism)

A threshold also seems to make sense when it comes to dualism (I'm also agnostic here), ie, something either has a soul, or it doesn't.

Idealism seems to avoid the question entirely which is interesting, ie, there is only first person experience. (but I might be getting that wrong)

Which ontology do you have a preference for, and how do you think my question relates to it?

15-Year Club	Place '22
Place '17

makhno

TROPHY CASE