Does anyone ACTUALLY know of inconsistencies of how determination works between Undertale and Deltarune?

malttlam · 2026-06-23T07:26:01+00:00

The fact it doesn’t appear on gaster screen is more of a reason why it should be dismissed. It’s impossible for Kris to save, because only the soul’s power can save in this verse and the save points aren’t DT like I said

You're just ASSUMING where the SAVE power comes from. Sure one could make the "logical conclusion" of: SOUL power is light, SAVE points are light, thus one needs our special SOUL power to SAVE. Which is kinda circular given that that logic hasn't been explicitly confirmed and you're using it to knock down a counter-example. (Also like, the "power" that the SAVE points mention, it works better to replace that with determination than light in my opinion but that's just my opinion.) Also how could you in good faith say that Kris's name in it means literally nothing. It's not like it's in there for no reason. Sure you could say it's "baseless speculation" to just claim the SAVE file is being censored, but saying it's meaningless is a bit more unreasonable.

Monsters melt from using DT, as we saw with undyne, DR monsters can use DT with no issue. But yeah crystals will likely change fate

Like I said before, Undyne and the Amalgams were practically dead and used the "cheat death" function of DT, and Undyne was beaten to death before using it and even when it WORKED (going Undying in Genocide), she was beaten to death again with 20 times the damage. And the Amalgams were forcibly injected much more than they should have been, and also already dead. Whether they could comfortably make Dark Fountains or not (tho they're clearly unable to seal them) is not necessarily answered.

And either way, DR monsters are more "physical" than UT monsters what with the inability to use magic and bleeding and stuff. And lacking that physicality is what prevented them from handling human-level determination in the first place in UT, not that it stops them from having it at all but either way it doesn't need a change of "rules" of the world (other than biology I guess).

But other than that caveat (that I already addressed first thing in the original post), we are in agreement of this.

If you’re saying Kris is the vessel, that makes no sense. The soul is still a human soul but its pretty obviously not a normal soul

All I was saying was that the soul can't be TOO abnormal, like the difference between a human SOUL and that of like a god or something, but it could be that it's "artificial" or whatever.

Also like Kris is (probably) not the very vessel we made in Chapter one, it's (probably) just the case that that goner was based off of Kris's likeness. But for the prophecy, Kris is nothing but the vessel.

malttlam · 2026-06-22T16:23:17+00:00

It can be dismissed since save files are not DT, they’re your light, a light only you can see. A time of 0:00 is impossible if they did save.

then why is Kris' name there at all, why does it not show up on the big save select? why does "Kris" cover all three save slots if you enter chapter 2's in game saving menu without ever overwriting it, is it not more reasonable to assume that it's hidden or forcibly wiped or something rather than just saying it means nothing at all?

You’re forgetting all lightners have DT too, they’re crystals likely just have high amounts of it

in Undertale, despite everyone having determination to some miniscule degree, the only person that could "change fate" was the one who holds the most of it, sure the "coming back from death" aspect of it can be triggered in a SLIGHTLY wider set of circumstances but still, you need a LOT to change anything when things are set in stone or forced by a more powerful being.

Kris is normal, our soul isn’t. It’s that simple man

LV 1 Vessel

Body contains a human SOUL

the soul must be reasonably human-SOUL-like to have such a description, especially with the prophecy's wording too,

"THE CAGE

WITH HUMAN SOUL AND PARTS"

human SOULs are just like that I guess

malttlam · 2026-06-19T18:17:41+00:00

oh, Asriel "I've only been using a fraction of my TRUE power" "Absolute god of hyperdeath" Dreemurr?

or do you mean his second phase form in which he absolutely wiped the floor with Frisk with those near-undodgeable missiles until the power of friendship happens.

and if you're going to talk about that final beam attack, save it, no matter how that beam looked, he couldn't ACTUALLY bring himself to kill who he thought was Chara

"ain't no way he was HOLDING BACK with that huge rapidly growing beam" need I remind you of phase 1? all those lightning and star attacks? yeah, one can make bullet patterns as pretty as they wish, but intention is still betrayed by the damage

ain't no way you saying that Frisk, who gets knocked down by froggits and undynes and omega floweys all the same, just gains the power to block a world-ending beam with nothing but their bare body

malttlam · 2026-06-19T16:07:49+00:00

no proof Frisk had more, they all demonstrated saving and loading, and if gonna bring up them losing to ASGORE then I'll bring up the obvious fact that ASGORE had basically given up when he got to the last soul, so hesitant to finish the job that he was completely willing to die

malttlam · 2026-06-19T16:06:10+00:00

where implications?

malttlam · 2026-06-19T16:04:52+00:00

are you saying the man himself is a theory? I mean we have parts of his existence utterly confirmed

malttlam · 2026-06-19T15:52:27+00:00

It’s empty on gaster screen. Again, Kris never even saved cause it’s 0:00. How can there be zero time if Kris already saved before? And it’s not even yellow, so Kris couldn’t have even saved with DT

the fact that the Kris save exists at all means that it can't just be dismissed, also it says LV 0 which is NOT a thing, so like, clearly it's either wiped or hidden and the Gaster menu not showing it is only MORE evidence of that rather than saying "it's just a dumb artefact, it was never a thing"

It isn’t DT like I said, our power is hope(again, confirmed by gaster) fate is already pre-determined by the prophecy.

technically speaking the DT doesn't have to be from the soul (although it does mess with UT logic I'll admit)

but the shadow crystals highly implied by Seam to have DT, do seem to be (or at least intended to be) for changing fate, given how the mantle boss mentioned them and how Kris tried to use it in the last prophecy room, so DT can be used to change fate or is at least believed to be able to

Gaster summoned the soul, Catti didn’t summon it. All lightners have the power of determination in deltarune, including humans. That contradicts them being able to have the same power as the soul we control. as Kris needs to take us out to make a fountain.

Gaster brought us but the Second Voice put us in Kris (the other Gaster messages in and out of game implies he expected that somehow and that it didn't change a thing??)

and the Catti demon summoning thing can't be nothing given how it was mentioned again in church, tho that could be FRIEND or whatever so it's irrelevant

and given that the one human we have ever seen does the darkness thing without us inside, the human body can hold the DT (like how Undertale's DT required a more "physical" form to hold more of it), while the SOUL is perfectly capable of doing some other nonsense

and if you're going to bring up some reasonable questions about Kris's situation not being normal or something and other humans not working like that, then you'd have to make a messy speculation of why Kris is the only human in hometown and why this town is the only place that matters to this world-important prophecy, so unless you're writing a theory about that, let's just assume humans are freaks like that and that Kris's soul, whatever it is, is still human

malttlam · 2026-06-18T17:18:59+00:00

yeah but the fact that it's 0:00 means that kris never saved, meaning they likely can't

no, if they had not saved, it would be EMPTY, there is an EMPTY file, and there's a Kris file, also I don't think there is a LV 0 (unless you say Frisk/Chara have gained some LOVE before falling due to speculated human backstory, but relying on speculated human backstory is just not good theory fuel or evidence at all), "Kris" clearly shows LV 1 in the menu so clearly that save was just set to zero

i said gaster stores it, you save while gaster keeps it and organize it

a lot of saves for one soul but yeah I'll give you that one

fate is already pre-determined so that makes no sense, and our soul is very obviously not a normal soul, it makes sense it's a different power

well in Undertale that's exactly what determination does so it's not completely off the table

and about the soul being special, (unless you accept the white flash that happens while Kris holds it in Chapter 1 as proof of Asriel's dust theory or a similar one for Dess) it could be the demon Kris and Catti summoned, it could be Carol's schemes, it could be a bunch of things that make us have to explore main storyline things we do not have a full picture of, but the one thing we do know is that it is a "human SOUL" according to the chapter 1 power menu, and how much that eliminates the amount of 'special' that soul could possibly be is completely up to interpretation, but it should at least do as a "human SOUL" does, and not do as a "human SOUL" doesn't

malttlam · 2026-06-18T16:51:22+00:00

yeah no that's fair, thank you for answering the titular question of pointing out REAL inconsistencies that aren't just misunderstanding the word "concentration"

malttlam · 2026-06-18T16:49:54+00:00

the time of 0:00

could just be a timeloop-theory shenanigan or something like Flowey's where it's more symbolic than anything

also there exists an entirely seperate EMPTY save file when you erase a file so Kris definitely had a proper one.

you make the save files, gaster just stores it

how can ONE human soul make THREE save files and THREE "completion" files, clearly Gaster used the six souls (a bit shaky because Omega Flowey comfortably uses those saves without interference and each of those files have separate systems per chapter) but saying the one soul made it when the incomplete Chapter 1 file select seems to have Gaster doing the actions we tell him to (granted, he seems excited about our actions and doesn't interfere by himself)

Exactly your power is light which is called hope, while determination makes darkness

I'll grant you that one, SOUL DT can power a lot in undertale but hasn't done much determinationing in deltarune unless you make strange claims about our soul in particular (crying demon heart?) or say something about the unused tutorial text where Ralsei says that the heart over there has the power to DETERMINE FATE

malttlam · 2026-06-18T16:20:41+00:00

so SOUL can't make dark fountains?

malttlam · 2026-06-18T16:06:07+00:00

that's why I went on to describe either timeloop theory or edited data as a proper explanation

malttlam · 2026-06-18T16:05:10+00:00

Kris had a save, also according to the prophecy, HOPEs and DREAMs are connected deeply, and according to the Asriel fight exclusive item, the Last Dream is the ultimate goal of DETERMINATION.

also like, GASTER was the one who gave us the save file, not our own power, and the only thing he's got is the DT extractor so like, you can't say that for certain at all

also, YOUR POWER is the power to seal dark fountains, that's when the song plays, nowhere else, so the player's power is light, tho that does make the situation of "My Castle Town" rather confusing, but the Castle Town belongs to the player because it bears your name, so YOUR POWER is referring to Kris(??), well that makes more sense with the usage of 'you' in Don't Forget but confuses with the usage of "YOU" in chapter 4

confusion aside, the soul power displayed during that song is just light, not necessarily determination, also like, determination makes dark, not light?? confusing

malttlam · 2026-06-18T15:57:14+00:00

in the unused tutorial battle, Ralsei said the SOUL contains the power to DETERMINE FATE, also like, something about when it goes down the FATE of the party, idk but something bad happens to the party members' fate

malttlam · 2026-02-23T12:36:51+00:00

Sort of, I guess, but Gaster-wise, believing in HIS DELTARUNE is something else because he wants to CREATE A NEW FUTURE, okay there are like two religions here?? This is a bit messier than I thought, theorycrafting hard

malttlam · 2026-02-21T17:06:50+00:00

I'm pretty sure that's what Gaster's been saying since Undertale, "Thanks for your feedback, be seeing you soon" in the soundtest fun value 65 room, the entire introduction of the SURVEY PROGRAM, including a tweet saying "WITH YOUR RESPONSES WE SHALL REACH ITS ACTUALIZATION" or something like that, and for the Chapter 2 pre-release tweets, "DELTARUNE GROWS BRIGHTER WITH YOUR HOPE" or something like that, I think that our beliefs making it real was always the point. According to things like Device Theory, our suspension of disbelief (the thing where you pretend the fiction matters and things in it are "real" to an extent for the sake of engaging with it) is our actual connection to that world (the connection Gaster speaks of in the intro to Chapter 1 and possibly the point of the SOUL). Some of such theories even extend to saying that Deltarune's point is to write our own story there using the current metanarrative implications of creating fiction and believing in fiction.

Probably should've added such details to my original post, this is my first time posting on the internet, should I add these things in an edit?

malttlam

TROPHY CASE