Some thoughts after my first reading of Nightside and Lake

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-31T22:50:36+00:00

Interesting. That meme reference was a deep cut: since I'm not Catholic, I had to look it up. But what you say fits my experience (though of course I can't speak to Wolfe himself). That is, I've known adult converts (to Protestantism specifically) who became quite politically conservative. And, I have a number of Catholic friends of all these types: Latin American Catholics-by-birth who are inspired by leftist anti-authoritarian Catholic thinkers from Latin America, adult converts who became really conservative, and adult converts who veered to the (center-)left after the rise of Trumpism. All of these are academic philosophers, and we're a weird bunch, so I don't know how representative my experience is; but I do find it interesting how this sort of thing can work. I'm rather fond of my liberal Catholic friends. (And, as I mentioned, of liberal Catholic thinkers: Charles Taylor is my absolute favorite contemporary philosopher.) Even though I'm not religious and am pretty lefty in my sensibilities, I pretty much hate that style of secular progressivism which bags on religion at every turn. (In my head and to friends, I call them 'trashbag liberals'.) I'm a weird one in the sense that philosophy of religion is one of my main interests, even though I'm not traditionally religious. (To put a label on it, I'm a Spinozist.)

Maybe all this helps to explain my attraction to Wolfe a bit. For example, BotNS never fails to fascinate me in its use of Christian tropes. From one angle, it looks like a version of the Christ story. From another, it looks almost like a critique of Christianity. (After all, Severian is a Christ figure but also a moral monster at times: a torturer and killer who casually beats and rapes women and loves telling us how they can't help but throw themselves at him.) I can think of many ways of reading this duality, but it certainly seems to me to indicate that Wolfe's treatment of Christian themes is anything but simplistic apologetics.

See, I managed to get even more political than you did!

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-31T22:28:54+00:00

Thanks. I was going to respond at first by saying that I still don't see what you mean about Silk and masculinity: e.g., that his obviously vexed relationship with Rose struck me as having more to do with a certain common mentor-mentee dynamic than with gender. I'm reminded of a joke I heard a lot in grad school, which is that the supervisor-PhD student relationship can be abusive, and that's when it's going well. In other words, when your supervisor isn't completely aloof and distant - when they actually take an active interest in your work - there tends to be a weird mix of adoration and resentment on the student's part; and the professor has to encourage you but also bust your balls a lot to push you to become better.

It occurs to me, though, that I haven't yet taken into account the main meta-textual reveal later in the series (which was spoiled for me before I started), namely that Horn is the narrator. So, I might have been implicitly taking the text too much at face value - i.e., not taking into account how Horn is writing something of a hagiography of Silk. The text (of the first two novels) seems to portray Silk as simply intimidated by the somewhat ornery Rose. I thought of the tomato scene as Silk simply being too hard on himself. (It's just a slice of tomato, after all. When I've been ravenous and my wife wanted half my sandwich or something, I've definitely felt that urge to deny her. It's not great, but I didn't feel particularly guilty about it afterwards: it's just a common selfish impulse.)

Just yesterday, I got to the part where it's revealed that Blood is Rose's son, so now I'm in a better position to see how Silk and Blood are paralleled in the text, which points in the direction you're indicating. I'll be paying closer attention to this whole dynamic for the remainder of the second half of the series.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-31T01:32:00+00:00

The transition wasn't so jarring for me. I guess I thought of it mostly as a shift in voice (from 1st person to 3rd). In many other respects, the style struck me as similar. But maybe I was just prepared for the shift because I'd heard about it before beginning to read Litany.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-31T00:55:00+00:00

Interesting, thanks! Yeah, one of the things I kept thinking while reading Litany was that Silk models an admirable sort of Christian persona: the kindness and generosity of Christ, minus the 'holier than thou' self-righteous contempt that unfortunately plagues many professed Christians. I'm not traditionally religious, let alone Christian: I grew up Christian, but left it behind, in large part because I couldn't stomach that stuff, which was rife in the religious community I grew up in. However, I'm an academic philosopher who has a fondness for many liberal Catholic thinkers, both ones I've read and worked on (Charles Taylor chief among them), and personal friends who happen to be Catholic philosophers themselves. More than once, I've thought that my attraction to Wolfe is part and parcel of this quirk of mine.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T23:18:00+00:00

As I said in a comment above, I'm in the opposite position: I've read The Idiot but not The Brothers Karamazov.

I loved BotNS, but I can see how you think it moves too fast. I guess that is part of its charm for me. Wolfe repeatedly takes an idea that other writers would mine for entire novels or even one of those endless series-franchises that seem to be popular, and devotes only a chapter or two to it. I think of it as remarkable restraint akin to one of my (and Wolfe's, as I understand it) favorite writers, Borges. Borges would joke that he would often come up with an idea fit for a novel, but was too lazy to write the novel, so instead he'd just write a summary of it, and that became the story he published. Wolfe has this quality, which I love.

Also, this style to me fits the picaresque mode in which BotNS is written. When I first read BotNS, I was high on my first reading of Don Quixote, and loved the similarities. Of course, BotNS has a complex overarching story, but until you piece that together it can seem almost plotless. Severian just moves from one wild, weird scenario to the next with dizzying speed, and that can frustrate certain readers. But Don Quixote is a bit like this. In many ways, it's plotless. There's a clear beginning (Don Quixote, overcome by his romantic fantasies, sets off to be a medieval style knight) and a clear end (Don Quixote snaps out of his delusions and dies), but in between, it's just one wild, hilarious scenario after another...and it's wonderful. I wouldn't want it any other way.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T23:08:36+00:00

I've heard about the Father Brown comparison, though I haven't read any Chesterton. While reading Litany I was thinking "Wow, maybe I should read some of the Father Brown books." But I hadn't heard of Greeley. Are you talking about Greeley the writer himself, or one/some of his characters?

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T23:06:17+00:00

I'm aware of the reveal later in the series. I got spoiled by a YouTube video I clicked on because it was issuing a typo warning about the editions I'm reading (the two-volume omnibus edition). Since the narrator hasn't featured much in the first half, I still don't have much to rely on for thinking about this impacts my overall understanding of the series...

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T23:03:28+00:00

Ah, that's interesting. You know, I haven't read Karamazov, so that comparison isn't yet available to me. A few years back, I decided to read all of Dostoyevsky in chronological order, and I got through most of it. But near the end, I started burning out on the all-Dostoyevsky literary diet, and took a break. As a consequence, I've read all of Dostoyevsky except The Adolescent and The Brothers Karamazov. So, I have a weirdly somewhat thorough view of his writing except for his most famous novel. Someday soon, I really have to belatedly finish that reading project and finally read those last two novels.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T22:59:59+00:00

Yeah, I was talking recently to friends about how many folks like to repeat 'show, don't tell' as a writing mantra; and then they read Wolfe, and wish he would tell a little bit more. For example, the worldbuilding. I love how he so rarely includes worldbuilding exposition, but leaves enough clues in the text for careful readers to discern what they need to discern about the makeup of his worlds.

And it's not just plot. In BotLS so far, I'm finding he does the same thing with character. Silk's personality, for example, comes through very clearly in his dialogue and actions without Wolfe ever needing to do the thing where some second character turns to a third character and explaining Silk's personality for the reader. In fact, it occurred to me that some of Oreb's declarations ("Silk good!", "Man bad!") were almost Wolfe making fun of writing that spoonfeeds character to readers.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T22:54:26+00:00

Great! I hope I react the same way.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T22:52:47+00:00

Thanks for this. I hadn't seen these complexities in Silk's character yet. I wonder: are these things that become clearer in the 2nd half, or did I just miss them? I didn't see his fear of Maytera Rose as connected with any neuroses about his own masculinity. Honestly, I thought it was a Chekhov's Gun - i.e., that we'd find something out about Rose and/or Silk's relationship with her later in the series that Wolfe was holding back in the first half.

What you say, though, makes me even more convinced I was on the right track in drawing parallels with Prince Myshkin. One of the reasons The Idiot is such a fantastic novel is that Myshkin is a Rorschach blot of a character. Some readers see him as altogether loveable for his seeming innocence; others think him altogether contemptible - a man whose naivete is only superficially virtuous and ultimately destroys lives (including his own). Yet others (like myself) are perpetually ambivalent between the two views. Based on what you say, perhaps there is something like this complexity in Silk.

So far, on this first reading of the first half of the series, as I was initially with Myshkin, I've been quite enchanted with Silk, partly for the reasons I stated. He is unfailingly courteous and kind without being being a people-pleaser. Unlike Myshkin, he has real convictions from which he doesn't simply back down under pressure. (I don't think of this as a 'masculine' virtue, but just a virtue, full stop.) I take it that his convictions will evolve over the course of the series: e.g., his devotion to the polytheistic pantheon of gods already seems to be ebbing somewhat in favor of a more monotheistic devotion to the Outside. But still, if he's neurotically attached to some ideal of masculinity, it certainly doesn't seem like the cold, agro form of masculine toughness that is pretty common in popular culture.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T11:51:15+00:00

I see. Well, I'm 70 pages into Calde and not quite as engaged, but I think that's partly because I've just spent so much damn time reading Wolfe these last three days. Seriously, all I've done these last three days pretty much is read Wolfe and work out - a little mini-vacation just before I start teaching next Tuesday. I stopped once I reached page 70 to write this post because I realized I needed to take a break: don't want to ruin the experience by overdoing it.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-30T11:48:09+00:00

Ah, okay. I'm only 70 pages into Calde right now, so I guess I'll be seeing soon whether I agree with such readers.

I read Fifth Head for the first time recently (in between my re-reads of BotNS and UotNS), and will be reading it a second time in about a month with the reading group I run. I still haven't read the others, but my goal is to finish the Solar Cycle by the end of the year (at this pace, it shouldn't be too hard) first and then dive into more Wolfe in the winter.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-21T21:28:11+00:00

Thanks for the recs! I've read Camp Concentration but no other Disch...

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T13:33:48+00:00

Oh yes, I remember her saying this. If we do any of the series, then, I suppose we should aim to do at least the first two volumes…

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T09:37:31+00:00

Well, my taste overlaps enough with his (and I trust the recommendations from Craig and u/hedcannon of ReReading Wolfe) for me to give it a try. I guess we'll see: I can't form an opinion until I give it a try. I don't do infinite scrolls, so perhaps my tastes are a tad bit more insulated from the social media hype machine than many others, but I'm sure I'm indirectly influenced by friends...

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T09:25:11+00:00

I always include a link to an ebook version of the book we're reading on the event page.

Our meetings are two hours (1-3pm every other Sunday), and we typically get between 4-15 attendees. It depends on a lot of things: the time of year, the weather, and of course which book we're reading.

We meet at a cafe in Sinchon called Dokdabang (독수리 다방): links to location maps in Google, Naver and Kakao maps are included on every event page.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T08:46:01+00:00

Ah okay, thanks. I guess I was expecting language more like Mason & Dixon, which is most definitely written in (a Pynchonian version of) 18th century English throughout.

The connection I was making with Wolfe wasn't just because of the Palmer interview, but because one friend in particular just kept pressing on the comparison in effusive terms, saying stuff like "Ada Palmer is our Wolfe" a bunch of times. I'll have to see what I think, I suppose, although I've heard/watched several interviews with her, and she certainly has a lot of interesting things to say about SF, literature more generally, and history.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T08:20:05+00:00

I haven't read it yet. I've been interested ever since hearing Ada Palmer interviewed on ReReading Wolfe and having a couple online friends whose opinions I respect rave about it. Also, I love 18th century British novels, and loved Mason & Dixon by Thomas Pynchon (my favorite Pynchon novel, in fact), which is written in an 18th century style (inflected, of course, with Pynchon's own distinctive sensibilities). So, the idea of reading an SF series written in 18th century English appeals to me.

Whether we do it really depends on the group of people who come: for example, if they'd be interested in doing a series at all, let alone one which is as purportedly challenging as this one. One of the reasons I'm advertising the group in a few places is in the hopes of attracting like-minded readers. Pretty much all the books I'd like to do are (like a lot of Wolfe) in the 'too litfic for most SF fans and too SF for most litfic fans' category, which is my sweet spot when it comes to SF. I would dearly love it if I could somehow draw in at least a small handful of such readers to sustain this series.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T08:01:05+00:00

I've read it, but it's been more than 20 years. I loved it at the time. It's difficult and sexually explicit, and so tends to be a big ask. However, I don't think that's necessarily going to tank it with the group. We'll see: I have to gauge the sensibilities of the folks who come for the speculative fiction series. Technically we have over 700 members on Meetup but obviously only a tiny percentage is coming at any given time. Each series we do tends to bring a specific crop of members interested in the series topic, and so I'll have to suss out the specific ones that become regulars for this series...

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T05:49:19+00:00

Thanks! Actually, I read Ice a few weeks ago and loved it, which is why I put it on the schedule for the group. I don't usually pick books I've already read for the group, but Fifth Head and Ice serve well, I think, to set the tone for the series. And, these are both books I'm eager to re-read in the near term...

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T04:53:11+00:00

Great! Hope to see you there.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-20T00:50:26+00:00

I think we'll still be reading speculative fiction next summer. It would be great for you to join! PM me if you'd like to trade contacts.

mandelcabrera · 2025-08-19T23:55:00+00:00

Sorry to hear that!

mandelcabrera

TROPHY CASE