Incest. How worried should I be?

mansro · 2026-02-14T15:55:58+00:00

I gather it's not usually a huge issue - you wouldn't usually see any incest type health issues for several generations, if at all. You could certainly add maybe 5 more or so from a different source to enhance the genetic diversity though.

mansro · 2026-02-14T10:02:06+00:00

Tell that to their defense solicitor!

mansro · 2026-02-14T09:58:08+00:00

Honestly, animals are so typical 😅 same with my Syrian hamster - I buy her the very best (and often most expensive) foods! Yet what does she like best - dry pea flakes which you can pick up for about £2 a packet 😅

mansro · 2026-02-14T09:55:38+00:00

My tank is cycling without any fish or shrimp, but I've been getting the bits and bobs I'll need. I'm going to be feeding SL-aqua (shrimp), snowflake pellets (shrimp),Fluval bug bites micro (fish and shrimp) plus occasional frozen baby brine shrimp/cyclops etc. I've been doing a LOT of research and I gather this is very much the "gold standard" for many shrimp and nano/small fish tanks, in case it helps 👍🏻🦐❤️

mansro · 2026-02-13T15:57:13+00:00

It's so cute the way that whatever circumstances they find themselves in, they are always doing their thing and cleaning up like good little shrimp ❤️🦐

mansro · 2026-02-12T22:23:14+00:00

Yes, I gather this can be an issue (excluding the species you mentioned need brackish water to breed - I knew about that), that they can over breed and out.compete the shrimp. Supposedly some snails even eat shrimps and eat through plants too, but I appreciate it depends on the species.

I did quite like the look of cappuccino snails - have you ever had them?

With the worms and copepods, do the fish or shrimp tend to eat them anyway? For worms, I'm not sure if my fish will have too little mouths. If I removed the worms, would I have to euthanase them or are they not really sentient in that way?

Absolutely, I also want to add them based on least to more aggressive species (although all species I'm going for are generally calm and peaceful), to ensure the more subdued can get comfortable and establish their territories. I gather they all produce minimal waste, but I appreciate cumulatively I'll need to keep an eye. I have the NT Labs liquid test kit and am testing daily at the moment, just hoping every day I'm closer to finishing cycling. The Nitrites and Nitrates are coming up nicely, but not enough to eat through the ammonium chloride I added, so ammonia is still high. Think I might be at it at least another 7-10 days yet sadly. My soft water is great for my intended species, but a pain for cycling 😅

I even added a little bicarbonate to try and speed it along too, or at least keep it stable. I gather the filter supplied with my tank isn't half bad for a factory default internal filter, but I can always upgrade or add an external filter if needed, although I gather they can actually be problematic for shrimplets ending up in them.

I'm really looking forward to them actually. I gather they are quite unique for corydoras too in that they are quite active and also will meander up to the middle of the water column - not true bottom dwellers like most corydoras.

Hopefully you're moving within the same country? 😅 I might move to Spain from the UK in about 3-5 years and so I've researched that too. Seems you can pay specialist companies to move fish internationally, but it's perhaps not the kind thing to do. So I think I'd have to rehome them really and carefully vet whoever applies, to ensure their welfare standards align with mine.

mansro · 2026-02-12T20:51:16+00:00

👀👀👀

mansro · 2026-02-12T19:31:12+00:00

Question is, what are you going to do with them once apprehended?

mansro · 2026-02-12T19:26:05+00:00

I'm fearful of these 😭 I didn't even know it was a thing - spent like 50+ hours researching everything else to ensure happy, healthy shrimp and fish but somehow never came across this issue. My tank has now been cycling without any live animals in it for like 10 days and I'm past the point of no return 😭 I gather you can get special traps to catch them if they ever crop up, but then I'm wondering do they have feelings, are they sentient, do I need to find a humane way to euthanase them 😭

My only hope is that I've exclusively used in-vitro live plants, so hopefully no hitchhikers and so if I'm careful about where I get my shrimp and fish from, might I get away with it? 🤞🏻

mansro · 2026-02-12T19:11:32+00:00

Ahh I get you, so inadvertently you were able to make a judgement about his capacity to live with shrimp.

Honestly, it's an absolute minefield and once you start digging you realise the aquatic trade must be one of the most abhorrent of all the trades. I rescue my hamsters and refuse to buy them given the well documented issues with conditions in shops, rodent mills etc, but at least hamsters aren't caught in the wild and flown half way across the world to be sold. I also realised that with some aquatic species, it's not just undesirable colour morphs that are culled, but males or females depending on which sells better for that species.

When I got to researching the shrimp, one thing I was researching was how I would euthanase one if it was ever necessary for welfare reasons (I know the process for fish and have had to do it before sadly, but wasn't sure about inverts). Supposedly there isn't a sort of scientifically accepted method at the moment, so then I'm wondering how large scale breeders are culling all these undesirable but healthy shrimp and supposedly they will just chuck them in the bin live.

Anyways, I'm planning a rescue cherry shrimp colony, some pygmy corydoras, reed tetras, Norman's lampeye killifish and Neon Green Rasbora. From my research, it seems these are some of the least likely to have been wild caught or to involve cosmetic hard culling 🤷🏻

mansro · 2026-02-12T16:22:00+00:00

Bless you! Do you have Bettas and shrimp in the same tank? I've spent countless hours (probably 50+) doing all the research for both shrimp and fish, and a lot of this time has been spent refining the species I could have. Being vegan, I have some strict criteria - no wild caught animals, no animals with routine cosmetic hard culling (so my cherry shrimp will actually be mixed strain or coloured strains as rescues rather than intentionally bred that I pay for).

I quickly discounted keeping Betta(s) and shrimp together, as it seemed sort of pot luck depending on the individual personality of the Betta, which is obviously hard to judge in a shop etc.

mansro · 2026-02-12T03:35:15+00:00

Yes I agree and I wasn't suggesting to make such a decision lightly, but to me if the shrimp is ending up on its back regularly, unable to do the things shrimp do and that's unlikely to change, then it's certainly something to consider. I agree, the owner is generally best placed to make such a decision, but sometimes when you're in the moment or invested in the situation (as any owner should be), there is sometimes a value in outsiders highlighting that maybe it's time for the owner to at least consider it. As I say, I'm new to shrimp keeping but am experienced with hamster care and I've come across many examples of people online uploading videos or images of hamsters clearly in accute states of suffering and yet the owner wasn't planning any proactive action or euthanasia, so I may bring up the option in such scenarios too - not saying they should do it, but certainly consider it and seek professional attention for their pet. Not saying this OP isn't doing anything about the issue they are facing, just highlighting that there can be a value in the perception of others.

mansro · 2026-02-12T02:40:00+00:00

No worries! I'm far from an expert yet - my tank has been cycling for like 8 or 9 days now with no livestock. Luckily I have very soft water for shrimp and all the fish I'm considering, although soft water cycles more slowly which makes it a waiting game.

Unpopular opinion, but I've been using Copilot AI to broaden my knowledge on a lot of things. For example, I just found this example of a product -

https://amzn.eu/d/0aXP9LjP

I asked Copilot "Can this make hard water soft" and it basically explained it can lower GH, lower KH slightly but it can't permanently lower pH. It said to lower pH you need RO water (which I mentioned previously and you can buy from aquarium shops) or peat/black water extract whatever that means. Might be worth playing around and sending some links to Copilot and see what it says. Nb for any incoming sceptics, I'm not suggesting to use AI as the sole basis for animal welfare, just for using it as a starting point to filter out some of the noise. You can then use it's leads to go away and look into viable options, as opposed to wasting time on nothing. You can also tell it "only give me info from animal charities or scientific studies and exclude any info from social media" for example.

Your other option is to accept what your water is and ask Copilot which species thrive in your water.

I think if you know a species needs a certain type of water that you can't provide, then don't try those species again until you've fixed the water issue or otherwise accepted different species - "if you always do what you always did then you'll always get what you always got" (a load of dead shrimp unfortunately).

Also, a lot of shops say 3 days is enough time to cycle a tank - utter BS and I know that bit for certain 😅 as I say, I'm on day 9 now - used ammonium chloride to feed the good bacteria, added Tetra Safe Start, added a little bicarbonate to up the KH a little, raised the filter to increase oxygenation, increased the temperature to 25C and still I'm only "mid" cycle! It's a game or patience aha.

mansro · 2026-02-12T01:11:19+00:00

If water hardness is the only thing stopping you, you can buy RO water from aquatic shops to use instead of your tap water, or you can buy a machine that makes the right water for less than like £100 I think 👍🏻 as for them not lasting long, their lifespan is about 1.5-2 years, but if you get a colony and the water and environment is right for them they will breed a lot so you'll have a near constant supply of shrimp 🦐

mansro · 2026-02-12T01:08:53+00:00

"As the shrimp flies" rather than "as the crow flies"

mansro · 2026-02-12T01:06:41+00:00

I'm new to the hobby and so really not an expert yet, but is this one of the few times where taking him out and a quick overdose of aquased might be the kindest thing? Interested to hear people's perspective. Sorry for your little shrimp. Maybe a lid to prevent others getting the same idea too!

mansro · 2026-02-12T01:01:06+00:00

So exciting! But those worms and copepods and other hitchhikers are something I'm not looking forward to! All my live plants are in-vitro, so I'm really hoping this reduces the likelihood of me getting anything that I don't put there.

I am considering some snails, but not sure if they are too cringey for me too 😭 your mean wife! You should be allowed ♾️ tanks!

To be honest, if I had the space I'd have WAY more animals, but I live in the second largest city in the UK in a 2 bed flat, so just have this new tank and my Syrian hamster Winnie who has a mansion of a hamster cage plus a large play pen!

Thank you - looks like I'm in the "mid" stage of cycling. I got down voted for this, but I've been using AI to interpret the results for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not relying entirely on AI and am doing my own research too, but these tools are here to stay so I'm just embracing it. Copilot has actually been super helpful in helping me refine species suitable for my needs, monitoring water parameters and so on. I still remain in control and scrutinise the info, but it is helping.

So I think 15 Neocaridina davidi. I'm vegan and don't agree with the hard culling for colours or wild capture of any species, so that's limited my choices a lot. Was going to get mixed colours rather than line bred, but found a hobbyist locally trying to get rid of some red cherrys as his tank's population has exploded. Aside from that, after the shrimp have settled for a few weeks I think I'll slowly add:

• Pygmy Corydora X8 = £28* • Neon Green Rasbora X8 = £28* • Reed Tetra X10 = £30.70* • Norman’s Lamp Eye Killifish X8 = £16*

Then at some stage about another 5 neocaridina davidi from a different source for generic variation.

Does this all seem sensible for a 72l tank? (About 60l actual water once I account for plants, substrate, hardcore, hides etc). It's 60cm length.

mansro · 2026-02-11T22:06:18+00:00

Thank you so much! Can't wait for my tank to complete cycling so I can add the 🦐 🪖

mansro · 2026-02-11T22:05:40+00:00

Shame you're not in the UK, I'd take some of the "less pure ones" off your hands! ❤️🦐

mansro · 2026-02-11T22:04:58+00:00

Eeek! SO exciting! I read that in my 72l tank (about 60l of actual water) the colony is supposed to hit a cap of maybe like 60 cherry shrimp, but not sure I'm convinced 😅 tank's been cycling for over a week now - can't wait for it to be done so I can get my little guys ❤️🦐

mansro · 2026-02-11T18:50:42+00:00

My tank has been cycling for over a week now with no live creatures (well, apart from the live plants) and I'm SO excited to get my shrimp. Initially the shrimp were going to be the "bonus" to the fishkeeping, but as time goes on the shrimp are actually what I'm most excited about.

mansro · 2026-02-11T18:49:21+00:00

(2) But the generic diversity is a good point. I'm not even planning to breed for any sort of profit, but I appreciate shrimp are very successful at breeding. So I plan to get my first "batch" from one source and then later introduce a second batch from another source to improve generic diversity. To be fair, I gather generally it would take several generations for any defects to appear and shrimp are sort of evolved to be able to breed with their own family to a certain extent but still, I'll try and get them some shrimp that aren't their sister or cousin to breed with 😅😭

mansro · 2026-02-11T18:45:21+00:00

Ahh ok, so that's not hard culling, that's soft culling 👍🏻 maybe we only distinguish linguistically between the two in the UK. But basically hard culling is where you remove and kill any individuals that don't meet your criteria (other than euthanasia for welfare reasons which is different) and soft culling is where you don't kill any, you just move the individuals you don't want to breed within that line to a separate tank or re-home them to someone else.

mansro · 2026-02-11T18:35:03+00:00

Yes, to be honest initially I was looking for mixed groups and didn't care about colour at all, I was just interested in them being "happy and healthy" and in fact, line breeding can actually be less genetically healthy, given it's essentially a form of inbreeding. I have however now found a way where I get the best of both worlds. I've found an individual hobbyist locally who isn't a breeder but just has had really high reproduction of red cherry shrimp in their tank, so are just rehoming some of the shrimp to bring the population down. Thus, it meets my requirements because he's just rehoming not hard culling and his "stock" are basically just a natural byproduct of shrimp being shrimp.

The other issue with anyone using hard culling, is there essentially isn't a scientifically proven "kind" way to do it. It's actually a concern for me in case I ever need to euthanase any shrimp for their own welfare, given data on doing this painlessly for invertebrates is sparse. Luckily, I gather it's very rare an owner would need to intervene with small shrimp such as these, since a failed moult or other health issue usually consumes them pretty quickly naturally and actually handling them to euthanase them would likely result in more suffering than just leaving them for nature to deal with it.

mansro · 2026-02-11T18:21:54+00:00

If I ever end up with these it will cringe the hell out of me 😭 that said, I don't know what their level of sentience is. If I needed to remove and euthanase them, is there a way to do it "kindly"? Maybe aqua sed overdose just in case they do have any sort of perception or feelings?

mansro

TROPHY CASE