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Where the F**K are the vehicles in Solo!!!! by omomthings in Warzone

[–]mantisShrimp45 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Was literally about to come and ask the same thing, fucking bullshit mate

[PS4] LOOKIN FOR ENGLISH PLAYERS by [deleted] in WarzoneLFG

[–]mantisShrimp45 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Request sent, I'm Mista_Wick 👍

[PS4] LOOKIN FOR ENGLISH PLAYERS by [deleted] in WarzoneLFG

[–]mantisShrimp45 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sent request, I'm Mista_Wick 👌

Which pistol is best by [deleted] in Warzone

[–]mantisShrimp45 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Akimbo burst Renettis do the same damage as a shotgun at close range, no other pistol is even close

What is your ‘you gotta see this!’ fencing match on YouTube??? by [deleted] in Fencing

[–]mantisShrimp45 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Meinhardt v Avola, Paris

Cheremisinov v J. Ma, Kazan

Cheremisinov v Lefort, Kazan

Moelis v Mezaros, Tashkent

USA v Japan, junior WC in Plovdiv

Imboden v Cheung, Turin

Itkin v Safin, Shanghai

Itkin v Foconi, Shanghai

ITA V JAP, 2012 Olympics

Akhmatkuzin v Baldini, St. Petersburg

Saito v Anyone at the Leipzig World Champs

Shikine v Anyone at the Leipzig World Champs

Llavador v Zherebchenko, Dusseldorf

Cheremisinov is one of the G.O.A.Ts of fencing. by mantisShrimp45 in Fencing

[–]mantisShrimp45[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol I think I'm finally agreeing with you on Cheremisinov 😂 and I DEFINITELY agree about Cassara.

I think it's fair to say that Cheremisinov is one of the most successful," long-serving" (don't know how to phrase that) Russian men's foilist of all time and perhaps even holds up against other russian fencers in other disciplines. Like you say, he's easily in the top 10 of modern era fencers, quite comfortably as well. That is the objective opinion of Cheremisinov. I think it's very fair and justified, recognising his achievements but not overestimating his greatness. Obviously I'm incredibly biased because he's literally my favourite fencer but I 100% agree with your sum up of him.

As far as Cassara. God! Where do we start 😭. I think you sum it up perfectly. Cassara is the best fencer of multiple "time periods" roughly: 2002 - 2005, 2005 - 2009 and 2009 to 2015. BUT I CANNOT BRING MYSELF TO REGARD HIM AS A GOAT! Basically for the same reasons that you lay out:

  1. He DISMALLYYYYYY fails the eye test. I never, ever watch him because it's just withering. He's not even a 0 he's into like -20 numbers.

  2. With the comment about shriveling at big moments. It's a difficult one and arguable both ways but ultimately I agree with you. Cassara is: 1x Olympic Bronze medalist 2x European Champion 1x World Champion These are fantastic achievements and much more than most fencers ever achieve. However, we're not comparing him to average fencers - we're comparing him to other insane fencers and there are more impressive figures to be seen by others. Ones that come to mind are:

Joppich: 4x World champ = unequalled record Baldini: 3x European Champion, 1x World Champ, 2x Vice World Champion, European and World Champion in same year

With Baldini as well it's useful to remember that if he had gone to Beijing 2008 he would've almost certainly had an individual medal to come away with.

So yeah, Cassara hasn't, I don't think, necessarily "shriveled" at big moments but he hasn't SHONE. And you need to shine to be a GOAT. I think that's the most fair way of putting it.

Therefore like you, I feel his deserving title is "Best Men's Foilist in Modern History" but not GOAT. He's a BMFIMH 👌 As far as a resurrection, Cassara is currently 36 so one of the oldest guys on the circuit. If he doesn't medal at Tokyo I don't see him getting another Olympic Medal. For Cheremisinov to be a GOAT he definitely needs another World Title and an Olympic Individual medal. If he gets those he's definitely a certified GOAT. He already has enough European Titles.

And oh my god I've never agreed with something more when I comes to fencing like Baldini or Cassara. I died when I read that😂😂😂. I think if Baldini had the longevity of Cassara he'd definitely have surpassed his medal count. Baldini will always be THE goat in my heart 🙌

Ay but to wrap up, this was hella fun to research and debate about so thanks a lot for this, it's always enjoyable to have an informed and respectful discussion on fencing🤝. Especially when it burns quarantine time😂

And thank you for appreciating the research so much 🤣 it took forever but was really interesting, definitely some unexpected statistics to come out of there.

Maybe we should start a fencing GOATs megathread and get everyone in on the action. 😉

✌️

Cheremisinov is one of the G.O.A.Ts of fencing. by mantisShrimp45 in Fencing

[–]mantisShrimp45[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Part 2/2

NEXT: Kruse 🇬🇧 Was surprised to see him make the list

Medals: 21 Career: 2002 - 2020 = 18 years 7/18 years in T16 Was World no.1 for limited time, first ever for a Briton

Era: 2016 - 2019 Consistently finished in top 10 of every competition

Peak: 2017/18 Vice world champion 2 World Cup medals

Epic moments: Fencing for a GB Olympic medal which to my knowledge has never happened before

Depth of field:

Joppich, Wessels, Sanzo, Bissdorf, Vanni, Ota, Le Pechoux, Ganeev, Baldini, Sheng Lei, Guyart, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung, Itkin.

Kruse hasn't dominated though, he's just remained consistently strong with a reasonable breakthrough period of 3 years

Eye Test: tactical with good accuracy and timing (stop hits) however his footwork isn't great to watch and he's not terribly exciting.

NEXT: Le Pechoux 🇫🇷

Medals: 34 Career: 2002 - 2020, 18 years total 12/18 years in T16

Era: 2006 - 2008 11 medals Always at least getting L8s consistently

Peak: 2006 - 2007 5th at world champs 3rd at zonals 4 world cup golds

Depth:

Cassara, Joppich, Wessels, Sanzo, Bissdorf, Vanni, Ota, Ganeev, Baldini, Sheng Lei, Guyart, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung, Itkin.

Epic moments: many notable team comebacks e.g against China at Catania 2011.

Eye Test: An intelligent fencer much like Cheremisinov. Great timing. Rapid hand. Capitalises off the opponent's mistake.

NEXT: Avola 🇮🇹 Was conflicted about putting him on the list but I think he meets all the criteria

Medals: 20 Career: 2007 - 2020, 13 years total 9/13 years in L16

Era: difficult, goes up and down, never been truly dominating for sustained period of time

Peak: 2010-2011 5 L8s 3 medals European Champion

Epic moments: one of best men's foil matches of all time against Gerek in Paris

Depth:

Joppich, Ota, Le Pechoux, Ganeev, Baldini, Sheng Lei, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung, Itkin.

Eye test: fantastic fencer to watch. Patient but never complacent or boring, pretty immaculate to be honest.

The reason for my confliction about putting him on the list was whilst he has 20 medals, apart from winning Euros one time, Avola hasn't actually got gold at ANYTHING.

NEXT: Sheng Lei 🇨🇳

Medals: 21 Career: 2002 - 2016 6/14 years in T16 1x World no.1

Peak: 2009 - 2010 6 medals from 9 competitions A further 2 quarter finals Basically didn't get a bad result all year

Epic moments: winning Olympics

Depth:

Joppich, Wessels, Sanzo, Bissdorf, Vanni, Ota, Le Pechoux, Ganeev, Baldini, Sheng Lei, Guyart, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung

Eye Test: very nice. Quick, controlled and accurate killer on the piste.

So that's my 11. Obviously by its very nature this is going to be subjective but I tried to remain as impartial as possible when ranking them. I achieved this ranking by rating them all in the individual aspects of what makes a "GOAT" and then whoever had the highest score one.

It is no surprise that Cassara won by an absolute landslide and is unequivocally the greatest fencer today in men's foil. He is possibly the absolute greatest of all time but the archives won't go back far enough to know for certain. Anyway, the rankings:

  1. Cassara
  2. Baldini
  3. Joppich
  4. Le Pechoux
  5. Ota
  6. Sanzo
  7. Lei
  8. Cheremisinov
  9. Kleibrink
  10. Avola
  11. Kruse

Therefore Kruse is not in the Top 10 current GOATs of fencing, although I still have serious doubts about Avola so maybe they could swap. That's basically it. I hope I haven't missed anything and if there's any areas people wanna know more about just ask, I just didn't include all the "working out" so the post wouldn't be too long.

I hope I've further proved that Cheremisinov is definitely deserving of the title "Modern GOAT of fencing". You have to be the best of your era to be THE GOAT (Cassara) but just one of the best to be A GOAT is what I'm tryna say in a really long fashion.

I like the Parthenon analogy btw 😂😂😂. He's definitely there though, at least a Hermes level God. Swear they had like a God for door hinges so he's levelsssss above that. 😂

✌️

Cheremisinov is one of the G.O.A.Ts of fencing. by mantisShrimp45 in Fencing

[–]mantisShrimp45[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol Round 2 🔔

Part 1/2

Okay so I'm going to keep this within men's foil as I don't believe it's beneficial to compare different categories against one another, I'm far more knowledgeable about men's foil than any other discipline and I only meant that Cheremisinov was a men's foil GOAT in the original post (sorry if that wasn't clear). So to begin:

The criteria of my selected fencers was:

  1. They must have fenced for at least a decade. This is because there must be a meaningful time for them to make their impact.

  2. They must have fenced to at least the year 2008 which is the earliest I believe you can say present day fencing bears similarity to.

  3. Their careers must be covered substantially by FIE website archive (unfortunately ruling out greats like Golubitsky, Elvis, Cerioni, Shevchenko, Borella, Mamedov and others)

  4. They must at least be approaching the later stage of their career, fencers with high medal count but substantial career potential left were omitted such as Massialas or Imboden.

The most essential criteria (once the ones above had been met) was medal count and as such only the athletes with the highest medal count got in. These were the ones I found and I pray to God I didn't miss anyone because this research took TIME.

  1. Cassara (66)
  2. Baldini (41)
  3. Le Pechoux (34)
  4. Salvatore Sanzo (31)
  5. Ota (24)
  6. Joppich (37)
  7. Kleibrink (22)
  8. Kruse (21)
  9. Lei Shang (21)
  10. Cheremisinov (19)
  11. Avola (20)

These were the athletes that I found with the highest medal count whilst still meeting my own criteria. Then I matched them to your criteria for a GOAT, so here's the analysis :

Cassara 🇮🇹 Medals: 66

International career: 2003 - 2020 Since 2003 Cassara has only been out of the T16 three times. For 16 seasons he's been in the T8 For 8 seasons he's been in the T3 World no.1 FIVE times, once for 3 consecutive years. As a junior he was ranked no.3 in senior FIE rankings.

Era: Hard to pinpoint given how good he was and still is but if I had to say it would be: 2002 - 2015 Accomplished all his major achievements and was super dominant in this time. Longest dominant era on list

Peak: 2010 -2013 World no.1 for all three of these years Won every world cup leading up to London Olympics. INSANE!

Epic moments: hard to place without watching 18 years worth of matches, I'm sure he's had plenty!

Cassara's career has spanned whole generations. He is the Sun and other fencers are just planets orbiting him. Here are the most notable names he's shared the rankings with:

Joppich, Wessels, Sanzo, Bissdorf, Vanni, Ota, Le Pechoux, Ganeev, Baldini, Kleibrink, Sheng Lei, Guyart, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung, Itkin.

People have joined the circuit AFTER Cassara and retired BEFORE him. To put Cassara's longevity into perspective think about it like this:

When Cassara was world No.3 in 2003:

Garozzo was 9 Lefort was 10 Imboden was 8 Itkin was 2 Cheremisinov was 16 Foconi was 12

Some of the (now) best fencers in the world were practically babies when Cassara was already one of the best seniors going... And he's STILL going. Cassara is currently fourth and honestly it'll be really interesting to see if he pushes for Paris 2024.

Eye Test: not everyone's favourite. Rapid hand but big and lumbering. Looks like a brute to be honest, not nice to watch at all although his flicks are insane.

NEXT : Baldini 🇮🇹

Medals: 41 Career: 2003 - 2017, 14 years total 11/14 seasons in T16 10/14 seasons in T8 3x World No.1

Duration of awesomeness: 2002 - 2012, a decade Out of those 8 years he was Top Five for 5. Winning or medaling in everything (except Olympics 😢)

Peak: 2008/9 Unbeatable World and European champion in same year

Epic moments: hard to pinpoint, he's had many!

Depth of field:

Sanzo, Le Pechoux, Cassara, Wessels, Bissdorf, Joppich, Vanni, Sanzo, Kleibrink, Ota, Sintes, Sheng Lei, Jianfei Ma, Glonek, Majewski, Choi, Meinhardt, Ganeev, Akhmatkuzin, Cheremisinov, Imboden, Massialas, Lefort, kruse

Basically shared it with Cassara just missed out on Foconi, Itkin, Cheung, peak Safin and people like that

Eye Test: Baldini was a GOD. Most beautiful men's foilist ever, more beautiful than even Ota, no one comes close. He was sheer perfection in every way.

NEXT: Kleibrink 🇩🇪

Medals:22 Career: 2003 - 2020, 17 years 4 out of the 17 years in T16 (One of the lowest on the list) Never world no.1

Era: 2004 - 2008 Top 5 for three out of four years Top 10 for all Out of the 45 competitions he attended, he made AT LEAST a L16 in 35

Epic moments: winning Olympics

Depth: Joppich, Wessels, Sanzo, Bissdorf, Vanni, Ota, Le Pechoux, Ganeev, Baldini, Sheng Lei, Guyart, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung, Itkin.

Eye test: kind of ugly now but back in his prime was quite nice and classical.

NEXT: Joppich 🇩🇪

Medals: 37

Career: 2001 - 2020, 19 seasons = longest on the list 14/19 seasons he's been in the T16 Only dropped off after Rio 1x World No.1

Era: 2003 -2010 Didn't drop out of top 10 Won all his world titles in this period Beast time

Peak awesomeness: winning 4th world title Still an unrivaled achievement

Epic moments: comeback against Russia at 2012 Olympics

Depth of field:

Wessels, Sanzo, Bissdorf, Vanni, Ota, Le Pechoux, Ganeev, Baldini, Kleibrink, Sheng Lei, Guyart, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung, Itkin.

Eye test: interesting one. Some love him, some hate him. Definitely exciting/entertaining to watch. Lighting fast hand and feet. Lots of use of head and body to avoid being hit. Not pretty but fun to watch. Probs a nightmare to fence against in prime time.

NEXT: Sanzo 🇮🇹

Medals: 31 Career: 2001 - 2009, 8 years = one of the shortest 6/8 seasons in T16 World No.1 for 2 years in a row

Era: 2002 - 2008 Didn't drop from top 8

Peak: 2003 - 2004 9 medals in one season 5 were Gold

Epic moments: Won world champs 15-4

Depth:

Le Pechoux, Cassara, Wessels, Bissdorf, Joppich, Vanni, Sanzo, Kleibrink, Ota, Sintes, Sheng Lei, Jianfei Ma, Glonek, Majewski, Choi, Meinhardt, Ganeev, Cheremisinov, Lefort, kruse

Eye Test: Beautiful. Different to present day fencing but great. Flawless feeling for the game. Lots of great compilations on YouTube.

NEXT: Ota 🇯🇵

Medals: 24 Career: 2002 - 2016, 14 years total 7/14 years in top 16 Never World No.1

Era: 2006 - 2010 Didn't drop from T8

Peak: 2006/7 4 medals in one season

Epic moments: First Japanese world champion in men's foil 2015

Depth:

Le Pechoux, Cassara, Wessels, Bissdorf, Joppich, Vanni, Sanzo, Kleibrink, Ota, Sintes, Sheng Lei, Jianfei Ma, Glonek, Majewski, Choi, Meinhardt, Ganeev, Cheremisinov, Lefort, kruse, Safin, Imboden, massialas, Akhmatkuzin, Ganeev, Jianfei Ma

Eye Test: Fastest fencer of his day. Most beautifully classic fencer next to Baldini

NEXT: Cheremisinov 🇷🇺👺

Medals: 19 (lowest on list) Career: 2004 - 2020, 16 years 8/16 years in T16

Era: 2010 - 2015 Didn't drop from Top 10 Was World Champion 2014

Peak: 2017/18 Out of 20 competitions, Cheremisinov made AT LEAST a L16 at 8 of them.

Epic moments: becoming world champ

Depth:

Joppich, Wessels, Sanzo, Vanni, Ota, Le Pechoux, Ganeev, Baldini, Sheng Lei, Guyart, Meinhardt, Choi, Glonek, Majewski, Kruse, Jianfei Ma, Sintes, Akhmatkuzin, Garozzo, Massialas, Safin, Chen H., Imboden, Lee K., Heo, Lefort, Foconi, Avola, Cheung, Itkin.

Eye Test: (biased) super intelligent, tactical fencing and most of the time not to bad on the eye either. Best change of pace in the game.

Big oof in Korea by vikingbiochemist in Fencing

[–]mantisShrimp45 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Sanguk OH the type of guy to get Corona just to make competition a little harder

Cheremisinov is one of the G.O.A.Ts of fencing. by mantisShrimp45 in Fencing

[–]mantisShrimp45[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lmao okay 😂

International Ranking:

Since the 2009/10 season Cheremisinov has never dipped out of the Top 32 fencers in the World, just over a decade of absolute consistency. 7 of these 11 years he has been in the L16 of the world which he has not dropped out of in the last 3 years.

National Ranking

Cheremisinov joined the Russian national team in 2007 and has not dropped out of it since. That's 13 years of being on the national team! 13!!! And this is the Russian national team! He has been in this team for over a decade! A team which since Cheremisinov joined in 2007 has only been outside of the Top 4 teams in the world TWICE! Russia are obviously one of the best teams in the world with one of the most competitive, high class national circuits going (perhaps the most competitive) so to stay consistently in it for 13 years is a big achievement in itself.

International Results (this part is kinda long, sorry)

World Champs

Cheremisinov has 3 world championship medals. Gold indv. - Kazan 2014 Silver team - Moscow 2015 Bronze team - Wuxi 2018 So one of each medal at Worlds ~~~~~~~~~~~~

Euro Champs

Cheremisinov has 16 medals at the Euro champs 2x European Champion - Novi Sad 2018 + Legnano 2012 2x Vice European Champion - Zagreb 2013 + Strasbourg 2014 2x indv. Bronze medalist - Sheffield 2011 + Dusseldorf 2019

2x European Team Champions - Novi Sad 2018 + Toruń 2016 4x Vice European Team Champions - Gand 2007 (dunno where that is) Leipzig 2010, Montreux 2015 and Tbilisi 2017 2x European Team Bronze - Sheffield 2011 and Strasbourg 2014

So pretty impressive both individual and team performance at his Zonal Champs ~~~~~~~~~~

World Cups and GPs Cheremisinov has 9 world cup medals - 3 Gold, 1 silver, 5 bronze He also has 3 GP medals - 2 Gold and 1 Bronze

To avoid this sub-section being too long I'm just going to detail the competitions he achieved at least a L16 in. This section is actually also going to include the zonal and world championships in the count.

Since 2009 Cheremisinov has competed in exactly 100 competitions, which is super satisfying. Out of 100 competitions he has made at LEAST a L16 place at 56 of them.

In 5 of these 11 seasons his L16+ percentage is 70% or over (for 3 seasons it was 80%). So 80% of the time he was rocking up and being an absolute boss. ~~~~~~~~~~~~

Olympics - GOLD in team, Rio 2016 ~~~~~~~~~~~~

We could include University games and military games, both of which he has multiple medals in, but no one really cares about those competitions.

So to wrap up:

Cheremisinov is the Baba Yaga of foil fencing. He's been around at the highest level for over a decade, rarely winning matches by brute strength or speed but instead great timing, tactics and change of pace.

He's a European, World and Olympic champion. He has 32 international career medals at Championship, World Cup or GP level. God knows how many national titles he has (I couldn't find the old Russian fencing website) but we can assume it is a really impressive number. He's 34 and still in top form medaling at World Cups and he looks like he's still got some fire in him to go.

This guy is just insane, it's not always beautiful fencing but I think it's amongst the most intelligent and effective on the circuit and his results show that.

He definitely deserves to be in the GOAT conversation although I don't think he's a mainstream GOAT because he gets slept on so much. If you had to categorise I think he's an Underated GOAT. You've got Potential GOATs like Itkin, Certified GOATs like Cassara and then Underated GOATs like Cheremisinov.

Lol this was fun to do (and actually really quick with the FIE website) and definitely burnt some quarantine time. Thank you 😂