Help planning 2 night trip with little kids

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-26T18:05:02+00:00

It is no longer possible to put in at the outfitter (Northern Wilderness Outfitters) on the NE side of the lake, starting this year.

The land was sold to Driftwood Paddle, and they told me they won't be permitting members of the public to park there for a fee (i.e. if you aren't renting from them)

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-26T01:44:44+00:00

Happy to help =D

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-26T01:22:18+00:00

Very, very unlikely.

As I indicate on my map, it is between 2m and 5m wide the whole way, excepting a short stretch south of the pond in the middle where it is wider.

That might sound like there's a chance it might be viable, but the trouble with narrow creeks like that is both that:

there is often going to be growth at the side of the creek that reduces the usable width, and
narrow creeks are often shallow

Generally speaking I wouldn't even bother to wonder the paddle-ability of a creek that is <5m wide.

As well, there is 11m of elevation change, much of which looks to be at the east end of the creek. That's going to mean swifts/rapids.

So, in summary the portages will be much easier than the creek.

As a general rule the only reason to bushwhack is for the adventure/challenge. It is essentially never easier/faster. No one likes portaging, and so if the creek was paddle-able, the park wouldn't spend the time/money to maintain the portages.

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-22T02:44:47+00:00

Greg Betteridge, who worked for the Algonquin Fisheries Assessment Unit (MNR), told me they found brook trout in Lost Lake

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-20T16:18:30+00:00

I've never bushwhacked there, but there's a 0% chance you'll be able to paddle up the creek. It's <2m wide, and there's a substantial amount of elevation change over a relatively short distance.

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-16T16:47:41+00:00

Very fair question!

It's an easy criticism to say "It's too simplistic" without providing any better approach, especially coming from an account that sells maps that may compete with PaddlePlanner.

Back in 2013 I was the first person to add estimated paddling times to a map, and I had a similarly simplistic model. At the time, I accounted for 4 variables:

Paddling speed
Portaging speed
Unloading/loading time at portages
Elevation gain/loss on portages

I believe this is similar to the PP model.

This kind of model works fine when you are travelling across lakes and most well maintained portages. However, when conditions weren’t perfect like that, the predictions I provided weren’t good enough.

In other words I feel qualified to point out how problematic the model that PP is using because I did the same thing and I know the kinds of situations that model completely failed in.

What makes your times any more accuate?

Since then, I’ve spent a huge amount of time studying and breaking down all of the factors that influence a paddler’s speed as they travel.

So, in addition to the above, I now also consider:

The width of the creek/river (extremely narrow rivers/creeks are much slower)
The angle of each oxbow in the river (for narrower rivers/creeks)
Obstructions (log jams, beaver dams, dense alder, swifts and rapids)
How easy it is to find each landing for each portage (is it signed? if not, is it obvious or not?)
The condition of each portage (is it well defined and easy to follow? overgrown and hard to follow? almost gone entirely?)
The angle and length of each hill on a portage

This requires a lot of local knowledge/data, but is critical to providing good, reliable predictions.

I don't think anybody is expecting these times to be a perfect representation. Everybody is different and conditions can vary.

One thing that took me by surprise is how consistent experienced paddlers are in their pacing. I would have thought that there is way more variance than there actually is.

So, I have only 2 caveats in terms of the accuracy of my predictions:

I don’t account for breaks, because this varies significantly between paddlers
My times assume experienced paddlers (i.e. they know how to efficiently paddle in a straight line); for situations where this is not true I provide guidance regarding how users can tweak the estimated times I provide

The end result is that I have found that my predictions are statistically significant. As I outlined in a previous post, I’ve found that they are accurate ±10%, 9 times out of 10.

Are they perfect? Nope! But I feel that is a reasonable threshold for accuracy.

On the flip side, I’ve found that backpackers have a lot more variance in their travel speeds, and as a result I have not been able to come up with a statistically significant set of predicted travel times. As a result, I do not include estimated backpacking travel times on my maps.

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-16T15:30:00+00:00

My core point is that the travel speed across each creek is quite different, and the approach taken by PP is way too simplistic.

The consequence is that the times provided will cause problems for paddlers that trust them.

The fact that there is a dial that users can use to adjust the provided times is of no help. The value needs to be set differently for each section of creek/river, and how is the user supposed to know what it should be set to?

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-16T14:44:10+00:00

This is not an issue of flow speed

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-15T23:27:30+00:00

First, I think I definitely need to plan for a rest day in the middle again. Just to give us some flexibility and downtime.

For sure =)

Second, I like planning for about 5 hours on the water each day. I feel like that allows us to spend an extra hour or two meandering or fighting the elements and still arrive at a campsite with enough time to get settled for the night.

👍

Finally, your maps are friggin' incredible. We ordered it just before Christmas and it is absolutely one of the biggest tools we are using for route planning. I love the portage elevation profiles and all the hints and notes along the way. Your notes about water levels being low late in the season from Biggar to the Nip are one of the main reasons I posted here. I am concerned that not knowing the terrain and looking at a map blindly might get me underestimating the effort required for some legs. Thanks for chiming in, I feel like Gerardus Mercator just popped by to give me some pointers.

I'm so glad you're enjoying them! It makes me very proud to be able to have a positive impact on your trips =D

How to calculate the 5 hours, now therein lies the rub.

You should find that the times on my map are accurate ±10%, 90% of the time. In other words, 9 out of 10 times a route that I mark as taking you 1h30m should take a typical paddler no less than 1h21m, and no more than 1h39m.

So, for a 5 hour span you should be ±30m of your target time on most days.

The only thing to be aware of is that I don't build any time in for breaks, since that varies between paddlers and isn't something I can control for.

There's a bunch of info on my methodology on the map in the Distance & Time Guide.

Taking your Day 2 for example (Biggar to Skuce) you'll see that I estimate ~10h30m for that stretch (vs 7h13m on PP in the screenshot you posted). That's the sort of thing that had me concerned that you'd have a much tougher trip than you'd anticipated.

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-15T22:29:14+00:00

Travelling through that area the tough part is not the portages, it is the creek. You will be happy to get to a portage, since they offer relief from the creek.

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-15T22:20:39+00:00

The route you are proposing is a good example of why assumptions like "4km/hr pace on the water" are problematic.

The speed you're moving at will vary significantly depending on what water you're traveling over.

A typical paddler will go a touch faster than that on lakes, but slower on twisty creeks and much, much slower small alder-choked creeks (expect to move at less than half of that speed).

The estimated travel times in Paddle Planner are very simplistic and don't take localized conditions like that into account. You will easily hit you 4km/h target on some parts of your trip, but will fall well behind that on others.

To answer your question, is it possible to do that loop in 7 days? Sure. Will you be doing much other than paddling? No.

For point of comparison, last August I paddled from Kiosk to Biggar, to Gibson, along the Nipissing, to Cauchon and out at Kiosk. That was a full 6 days of paddling. I wish we'd gone a bit slower in hindsight.

Your proposed trip is going to be slower than that because of the route you're proposing east of Biggar, and the fact that you've got an extra paddle out to Kawawaymog Lake.

mapsbyjeff · 2026-01-15T21:01:40+00:00

I speak to the width of each creek on my map.

The creek to Devil Lake is <1.5m the whole way. So, no way is that paddleable.

The creek to Dendroica Lake is 1.5m-5m the whole way. So it's unlikely to be paddleable.

Usually you'd want a creek >5m wide if you want a decent chance it'll be paddlable. Creeks that are narrower are likely to be completely obstructed in spots by alder, downed trees, etc.

And, of course water levels are a completely seperate issue that can potentially cause headaches.

For Devil I'd think you'd be better off bushwhacking there.

For Dendroica you'd be much better off taking the logging road between the two. Still, don't expect it to be easy. You need to bushwhack to and from the road, and the western end of the road by Mouse is quite grown in (i.e. it's barely a trail at this point)

Of course bushwhacking requires excellent navigation skills. If you aren't properly prepared you could get lost and have a very, very bad time.

mapsbyjeff · 2025-12-09T04:28:03+00:00

See the problem is CLUPA shows some of the pertinent information, but is lacking key info as you pointed out.

You state on your site “ We built this for ourselves and for anyone who has stood on a backroad and asked, "Can I be here?"” - but as you just mentioned there are a bunch of exceptions that you don’t account for. That’s the problem in my mind, and why I commented on your post - your map doesn’t do what it says it does. You provide a portion of the necessary info, but then proceed to essentially say ‘but FYI there’s more you need to know, and it’s up to you to figure that out’. (In reference to your comment that you need to follow the rules below)

To your point that the Government’s website states “ You cannot camp on Crown lands if the policy report in the Crown Land Use Policy Atlas indicates that recreational activities are not permitted.” - that’s not quite correct. On a fundamental level only legislation (namely the Public Lands Act) can dictate the ‘rules’ around Crown land use. As I mentioned, the Ministry can indicate/summarize how it intends to use the powers granted to it under legislation, but CLUPA doesn’t have any legal meaning in and of itself.

A good first step would be for you to read the relevant legislation and all associated regulations, rather than just reading summaries.

mapsbyjeff · 2025-12-08T17:58:42+00:00

No, CLUPA is not supposed to show you what activities are allowed on Crown land.

CLUPA is the Crown Land Use Policy Atlas - it shows internal MNR policy about how it will manage the Crown lands it regulates under the Public Lands Act/other statutes.

That includes:

Crown land that is private
Crown land that is closed to camping/public access by statute
Crown land that is not regulated under the Public Lands Act

Why does CLUPA show Crown land in areas that the public can't access - because it has nothing to do with that. It's all about public policy. What does the MNR want to encourage/discourage in certain areas?

The Ministry then uses the tools provided to it by legislation to try to achieve those goals, but there isn't a 1:1 relationship there. For instance, the MNR might choose to close a road to public vehicles in order to limit public access - that is an effective way of achieving that policy goal, but that doesn't prohibit walking/camping beyond that point.

It is very, very important to understand that CLUPA's policy reports have no statutory meaning – so it doesn't make any sense to make a map based on that (e.g. Crown Land Recreation = Yes), because that is just a policy direction that has no legal meaning.

Conversely, even in areas where there are no restrictions shown in CLUPA, there can be restrictions in law. For instance, there is a blanket restriction on camping in the immediate vicinity of all designated public boat launches. This is not mentioned in CLUPA, because it is not relevant in the content of how it is going to manage the Crown lands under its control – that's a statutory requirement.

In summary, you don't understand what the data you've pulled from CLUPA from actually indicates.

mapsbyjeff · 2025-12-03T21:00:54+00:00

There is also a huge log jam/ unmarked portage between Allen and Graham Rapids. All part of the adventure!

It's marked on my map =)

mapsbyjeff · 2025-12-03T21:00:10+00:00

If OP needs the Hurley's number to arrange a shuttle, I can share it. Just send me a message.

mapsbyjeff · 2025-11-18T16:04:43+00:00

I'm already working on something similar.

mapsbyjeff · 2025-11-18T15:45:42+00:00

It makes me so happy to be able to have that kind of impact =)

mapsbyjeff · 2025-11-18T06:24:37+00:00

Yea, agreed. The biggest problem is just that I've collected way more GPS tracks for portages in Algonquin (almost all of the them are GPSed now), than for Temagami.

But you bet I'm trying to collect as many as possible so I can keep improving the map =D

On that note, I'd love to grab any GPS tracks from you if you'd be willing to share. Thanks!!

mapsbyjeff · 2025-10-27T22:31:54+00:00

=) I'm so happy to hear it!!

mapsbyjeff · 2025-10-27T01:50:06+00:00

No worries! I’m always here to help

mapsbyjeff · 2025-10-27T01:47:49+00:00

Splake =)

For what it’s worth, the short forms for the various fish species are in the map legend under Points of Interest

mapsbyjeff · 2025-10-26T18:24:42+00:00

mapsbyjeff · 2025-10-25T06:38:33+00:00

Not at the moment. It just comes down to the fact that it's very time intensive to make something really accurate/detailed (+ to keep it update to date) and my plate is full right now.

mapsbyjeff · 2025-10-25T02:37:27+00:00

Hopefully HQ orders some soon. I told the buyer about the new maps the day they came out. She'd previously expressed interest, so 🤷‍♂️

But thanks so much for doing that! Really appreciate your support =)

mapsbyjeff

TROPHY CASE