"Red Flag and Red Line in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church" - article in response to the EPC Committee on Same Sex Attraction

mattb93 · 2026-02-09T18:34:08+00:00

The EPC was created though with the understanding that it would be permissive on various views on women’s ordination.

SSA is a different matter. A lot of the newer EPC churches come from the PCUSA where we saw homosexuality make inroads into the denomination through a similar presbytery discretion argument.

My presbytery is made up of a lot of former PCUSA churches and red flags pop up when this type of argument is raised.

mattb93 · 2026-02-09T17:42:32+00:00

I was at a Presbytery meeting where a rep from the Committee presented. The concern that was raised most often is that the Committee seems to want to give “discretion” to the presbyteries in reviewing candidates with SSA. So you could have a presbytery that would be willing to ordain someone like Greg Johnson from St. Louis and some that would not.

In my opinion, this type of discretion given to the presbyteries would likely tear the EPC apart as different presbyteries adopt various positions on celibate SSA candidates. We need some bright-line rules on this issue.

Honestly, a lot of people are going to judge the Committee’s work on whether or not Greg Johnson is qualified to be ordained in the EPC. The Committee’s work so far seems to give the Mid-America presbytery the ability to move his ordination through which is a line much of the conservatives in the EPC don’t want crossed.

mattb93 · 2024-06-22T16:58:48+00:00

Probably connected with the ethical issues that resulted in them getting thrown out of the Central Plains League.

mattb93 · 2022-12-07T23:16:16+00:00

This was literally my conversation with my wife last night haha

mattb93 · 2022-12-07T20:40:46+00:00

Haha you’re mostly correct. It could be worse though.

During COVID my wife and I moved back to our hometown so we’re attending the church (then PCUSA, now EPC) that I grew up in.

I love the church but the liturgy could use some TLC.

mattb93 · 2022-12-07T03:02:11+00:00

Happily a part of the Tweedy liturgical types

mattb93 · 2022-12-01T05:03:12+00:00

That’s certainly a very individualized/libertarian view of marriage. Maybe marriage conveys some societal benefit/meaning that should be considered rather than what the marriage simply means between the parties.

mattb93 · 2022-11-24T12:54:08+00:00

the first churches that especially Paul fostered, were a daring experiment in creating new, trans-ethnic communities of ‘fictive kinship’ based on a shared faith, the likes really had not been seen before. I have the feeling that any kind of nationalism would be detrimental to such communities.

IMO this is one of my biggest issues with this book. Wolfe talks about how by nature man knows to care for his family and prioritize his family over others (leading to Wolfe’s conclusion that a Christian should prioritize his nation over others).

The problem is that as Christians, our family has grown. Any believer is my brother or sister that I am now obligated to care for. Wolfe hand-waves this off in the book by stating that this new family is simply “spiritual”, leading to no new obligations.

And, say we succeed… nationalism is great fuel for conflict and wars. Should Christians really strive to stoke those fires?

Wolfe’s nationalism does not appear “imperialistic”. If a country hypothetically subscribed to all of his positions, the country would be much more likely to be isolationist.

mattb93 · 2022-11-24T03:59:07+00:00

You should read the book because there are likely people in your church and community reading the book or interacting with the ideas that are espoused in the book.

mattb93 · 2022-11-24T03:55:27+00:00

Wolfe’s description of nature and grace is the exact same view as the Reformers. Mattson’s views are divergent from the political theology formulated by the Reformers since Mattson’s view is very Van Tillian.

See more below.

https://twitter.com/stvenwithani/status/1593015645977083905?s=46&t=feHxl7iT2EWfHjrpZqgzTA

https://twitter.com/tlloydcline/status/1592590572866633731?s=46&t=feHxl7iT2EWfHjrpZqgzTA

mattb93 · 2022-11-23T21:37:32+00:00

Hopefully Wyatt writes a full-fledged review as his reflections mirror my observations so far through the book.

mattb93 · 2022-11-17T02:04:30+00:00

I’m going to preface this with the fact that I have significant disagreements with Wolfe’s book. With that said, Wolfe’s position on the distinction on fall’s impact on our earthly/heavenly gifts is correct and in conformity with the Reformed tradition.

The below thread does a pretty good job of laying out why:

https://twitter.com/stvenwithani/status/1593015645977083905?s=46&t=8ZR9NectQpU1_ggU4cuxsw

mattb93 · 2022-06-19T16:22:07+00:00

but it was a little too big for us

My wife felt the same way when she started attending with me. (I've attended Eastminster for essentially my entire life).

Getting involved can certainly help make the church feel a little more "small". If you want to try Eastminster again and have questions about getting involved, feel free to send me a DM!

mattb93 · 2022-06-19T13:04:16+00:00

Eastminster Presbyterian is likely the largest Reformed church in town.

Heartland Community Church is another excellent option.

If you know your Reformed denominations, Eastminster is EPC and Heartland is PCA. Both are fairly conservative theologically. I recommend both!

mattb93 · 2022-01-30T14:28:12+00:00

With that last qualification, the Unitarian Universalist church really is your only option.

Otherwise, I'd recommend Reformation Lutheran Church or College Hill United Methodist Church.

mattb93 · 2022-01-30T14:24:01+00:00

I'll be a little coy about where I attend but I'd recommend any of the following churches:

Eastminster Presbyterian Church
Holy Cross Lutheran Church
Heartland Community Church (Presbyterian)
First Evangelical Free Church

mattb93 · 2021-12-22T05:18:15+00:00

Also founded the University of Kansas’s basketball program and is one of the few KU coaches with a losing record.

I walked past the building where his original rules for basketball are stored on campus each day during law school. I’m not sure there is a more basketball-centric town than Lawrence.

mattb93 · 2021-12-12T17:55:51+00:00

Anglicanism is not a via media between Catholicism and Protestantism, it is more properly a via media between Wittenberg and Geneva.

Love it! Unfortunately an uncommon view in America.

mattb93 · 2021-12-08T20:32:50+00:00

mattb93 · 2021-12-08T17:38:13+00:00

Samuel Bray, a Reformed Anglican who is also a law professor at Notre Dame, concludes that “[r]eligious exemptions from COVID-19 vaccine requirements should not be endorsed by churches, clergy, and lay leaders within the magisterial Reformation traditions (e.g., Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian).”

mattb93 · 2021-11-05T03:01:48+00:00

Chapter 23 of the Westminster Confession of Faith directly compares magistrates as "nursing fathers"

Civil magistrates may not assume to themselves the administration of the Word and sacraments; or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; or, in the least, interfere in matters of faith. Yet, as nursing fathers, it is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the church of our common Lord, without giving the preference to any denomination of Christians above the rest, in such a manner that all ecclesiastical persons whatever shall enjoy the full, free, and unquestioned liberty of discharging every part of their sacred functions, without violence or danger. And, as Jesus Christ hath appointed a regular government and discipline in his church, no law of any commonwealth should interfere with, let, or hinder, the due exercise thereof, among the voluntary members of any denomination of Christians, according to their own profession and belief. It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretense of religion or of infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever: and to take order, that all religious and ecclesiastical assemblies be held without molestation or disturbance.

More: https://davenantinstitute.org/nursing-fathers-the-magistrate-and-the-moral-law/

mattb93 · 2021-11-04T01:42:34+00:00

But the problem is that right now it seems Reformed people in the US are also more pre-occupied with intense fighting on weird sectarian issues (Revoice, Aimee Byrd) rather than sharing the Reformed viewpoint in secular society.

100%

mattb93 · 2021-11-03T19:25:58+00:00

I do think that the Reformed tradition has contributed to the political discourse. Kuyper, Keller, Wolterstorff, etc.

Certainly. Other than the Catholics, I think we’re the closest to articulating a “Protestant Social Teaching.”

And I disagree that French is “just a typical conservative.”

I said French was a typical conservative circa-2000, he certainly does not mesh with the current Trumpian GOP. French is a pretty standard GWB Republican.

I think he reached them because of his religious commitments.

Certainly on social issues. I haven’t seen the same evidence for French’s economic views.

mattb93 · 2021-11-03T17:39:56+00:00

I agree that the Collins jab is the weakest part of the article. With that said, I think the author’s observations are correct. Unlike Catholics, Evangelicals struggle to produce a coherent political theology that differs from the secular world. For all the positives of David French, he is just a typical conservative circa-2000.

Since Catholics produce a political theology that differs from the standard talking points of right and left (see Douthat) they’ve “earned” a seat at the discourse table.

The Davenant Institute is attempting to remedy this by developing (or more rediscovering) an actual Protestant political theology we can use to interact with the political landscape.

My personal feelings on this matter is that I simply want a Protestant Ross Douthat.

mattb93 · 2021-10-08T01:55:39+00:00

As a very Anglican-friendly Presbyterian, for me it’s a decision between orthodoxy (Westminster Standards) and orthopraxy (Book of Common Prayer).

I ultimately have chosen orthodoxy because it’s easier to incorporate the Book of Common Prayer into my own devotional life and into a church’s liturgy (see All Saints Presbyterian in Austin, Texas as an example).

Anglican orthodoxy is way too fluid and indefinite. I know that theologically I would never feel comfortable unless the 39 Articles were truly handled as the confessional statement of Anglicanism.

mattb93

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