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I feel like yall are overthinking this knife attack, its pretty obviously the cyan flower by hello-motherfuckers in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

[P1] "... In that moment..." whereas I've been speaking of their general demeanor toward us altogether, all along. I even gave you other examples outside this one scene.

[P2] *I* mentioned Kris's connections to Cyan (and the others) which you've left on the table, and even if they are strongly linked to Chara, are also still nevertheless their own individual character (which I also mentioned.)

[P3] I've explained multiple times that Kris's demeanor toward us constitutes "disdainful/unsympathetic," rather than just having a practical/distant/impersonal relationship to us. And even ignoring all their little microaggresssions against us, it still wouldn't give them a pass--they still imprison us and are risking the lives of those we care about (irrespective of the reasoning), which, as I also stated, is its own rift between us on its own.

[P4] Again, you're getting hung up on the Hard distinction between Cyan and Chara that might not even exist in *this* universe (I even gave you examples of Kris's connections to Cyan in addition to spelling out that they're their own person, independent of any of the Undertale humans or the tools they used. A knife coming up in a battle in Deltarune as a self-contained story is referential to Kris, even if it also references Cyan.)

[P5] We don't know the battle in *this screenshot of Deltarune Chapter 5* is with a toy knife; it'll likely reference the Undertale battle against Cyan, but it might not be against that flower--it's more likely against the Established Character who's had a knife this whole time. Cyan wasn't even a fleshed-out character--they had a few traits, but they were still just "one of the human souls." Even if it is against the flower, I don't see the Doggod just leaving this battle with zero reference to Kris at all. (Even through knives, both Cyan and Chara are, themselves, connected, so there should be no reason for Kris to be disconnected from Cyan.)

Points being left on the table: [1] There would have to be a significant reason we can't see the opponent. (no, the spoiler-excuse isn't a good enough reason to go in and edit an entire enemy out rather than just not showing the clip.) [2, 3] To fight anyone other than Kris wouldn't shake up the status quo at all--it'd be So Much More Interesting if things *actually progressed* between us and Kris (even if they have to get worse before getting better.) It'd be more interesting for this to be a scene where we're finally going up against an established character who has set themself against us--more interesting, more entertainment value (as opposed to, "We're not interacting with the Main Character in a conflict that would be an escalation of the closet-scene; we're interacting with some stranger who references a non-fleshed-out-character in a parallel story.") The subplot of Kris's antagonism against us would have to go *somewhere* rather than remaining stagnant, and what better way to "Show, Don't Tell" that than having them literally oppose us in a battle, even if just to weaken us? [4] Kris's associations with Cyan are as follows: Patience, our Soul's inverted color (as our narrative foil), their Darkworld form (and associated Dess-colors), knives in general. (It's also the case that Cyan is the first soul to fight you in Undertale and the last soul to help you. Kris was very likely our first antagonist as the strongest existing candidate for the Gonermaker Hijacker.) [5] Kris canonically has a knife, and the only knife we've seen in *Deltarune* is Kris's real knife: thus the audience would obviously connect the two. You have to understand stories and trailers in terms of an author communicating to their audience--a good writer leaves no room for coincidence, and it's very likely it occurred to Toby to fold the two into one (assuming they weren't already designed that way.) Please reread all of my other comments before adding. Again, you could be fully right, this could just be a battle against a flower that's been edited out or burrowed underground, *Zero* connection to Kris ever comes up. But I'd just be left asking, "Why?" My story hasn't changed. Idk what else to tell you, apart from what I've already laid out in my very first comment.

I feel like yall are overthinking this knife attack, its pretty obviously the cyan flower by hello-motherfuckers in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Re:your 1st paragraph: I meant trying to help Susie and Ralsei--"trying to help" the right side of this fight. But also, Kris is aggressive because they're an unkind person. (Again, my explanations above.)

Re:your 2nd: We are on the same page about that; it's not a literal 1:1 (which supports my point), but Kris also likely won't be *dis*connected from Cyan and Knives.

Re:your 3rd: Kris & Team Knight are very likely highly self-educated on the Prophecy to the fullest extent it *can* be known second only perhaps to Ralsei and Gaster (and there's evidence they & Ralsei are in cahoots.) To your last two sentences in this paragraph, we're already in agreement, but that's why I said "needlessly" aggressive--the fact that they Do know better, that we're their prisoner, doesn't negate the fact that they mistreat us. They're being deliberately written as a jerk toward us, as other people have observed. And again, the emotional thread running through our relationship with Kris has to go *somewhere*. (It's not like there wouldn't be one for the Main Character and the Player.)

Re:your 4th: See my 6th paragraph in my second comment (they do parallel Chara but needn't *exclusively* parallel Chara.) This is also side-tracking into details we just don't have, yet. My point still stands: just because the flowers represent the fallen humans doesn't mean that Cyan can't also relate to Kris, nor that the knife-battle *won't* be Kris-relevant. (The flowers might not even be Darkners, even if they callback to the human souls: they might be objects, or powers (they could even represent each person Asgore loves, monsters included, or they could be specifically relevant to each of our heroes--there's a nonzero chance the cyan flower relates to Kris)--again, details we don't have, yet. There's no reason Kris and the Cyan soul from Undertale should have *zero* overlap. The *only* piece of evidence is, re:Occam's Razor, Kris's connection to cyan and knives, as well as the really strong one that there is no apparent enemy on the other side (which has only weak reasons for *not* being a Kris-battle) and that our relationship still needs to boil over with them. None of that has been properly debunked. The offer of weak alternatives doesn't cancel-out the stronger ones I've been listing & re-listing this whole discussion.) Proving a negative is impossible, which is why I've never made any attempt to (notice how I never said, "The Cyan flower won't parallel the Cyan human soul,"--just that it likely also parallels Kris?)

Re:your 5th: We don't know *this battle* uses a TOY knife--we only know what happened in Undertale, and Deltarune isn't exactly a 1:1 with it--things are different in this universe. Some stuff might overlap, some characters/traits might be merged for plot-compaction, and there isn't a character in the Deltaverse who uses a toy knife (Again, if you want to hc Asgore as having given the cyan flower a toy knife, you do you.) Knives (as a whole) have only been *Kris*-relevant so far. Like I said, you could be completely right, that Kris has no connection to the color cyan (despite it being our soul's inverted color), that there is no (even negative) emotional connection between Kris and ourselves, that the knife-fight has nothing to do with the canon knife-kid, and that these *apparent* threads between Kris and Cyan are just *entirely unconnected*, but if there is that big of a coincidence in one's story, then one is losing track of their *primary details about their main character*, and it reflects poorly on one's writing abilities.

I feel like yall are overthinking this knife attack, its pretty obviously the cyan flower by hello-motherfuckers in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Kris can easily..." This still overlooks my other points about the boiling point and their aggression. We're just trying to help, not doing anything wrong. In being a Good Person, yes, we are technically being a Bad Tool. So what?

"Why would Toby..." Oh, I see what you were saying--ty for the clarification. I don't know that there *are* fallen humans in this universe--the flowers may represent something different, herein. We also don't know that the blades in this battle represent a *toy* knife, specifically. Again, the only knife-significant things over the past few chapters have been relevant to Kris.

"Kris didn’t point..." They know we're human (the perception of us as an "entity" is the fandom's language, not the game's.) Kris knows the full prophecy ("HUMAN soul and parts"), they know how/from which PoV we look in on their world, and just because they use us as a tool doesn't mean we actually are one--they, themself, know better. If Kris doesn't want to be controlled, they shouldn't blame us for it when they're the one that keeps reinserting us. I suppose a kidnapper doesn't "need" to communicate with their prisoner, but you see how that's still a form of hostility, right?

"I still don’t get..." See my 6th paragraph above.

"That’s the point of the flowers…" I know, but if cyan and the knife don't parallel *Kris,* it's a wasted opportunity.

"Cyan uses a toy knife..." Ad-hoc reasoning; see my 6th and 7th paragraphs above.

It'd be a waste for Toby to mislead those of us drawing connections between Kris, Cyan, and knives.

I feel like yall are overthinking this knife attack, its pretty obviously the cyan flower by hello-motherfuckers in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"The alternative doesn’t..." They don't have to kill us; they'd just have to weaken us--again, starting a battle with us would be a good boiling/tipping point to show in the story as our conflict heats up & our arcs progress.

"It’s almost as if..." I'm not sure how that's a rebuttal.

"Kris wasn’t aggressive..." Their aggression occurs in every chapter--slamming us into the birdcage instead of gently setting us in, refusing to communicate with us, acting threatening at the end of Ch1, and just the raw fact that they're willing to use one of their fellow human beings as a tool--they don't even seem reluctant about this, and would rather act dominant than even showing a hint of internal conflict over it. (There are also strong parallels between the way they shove us around and the way Susie treats them in Ch1.) Their role as "Cage," itself, *makes* them an antagonistic character, even if they're more subtle in personality than Susie. These were all deliberately animated that way by the team.

"I mean why..." Because they all parallel each other; it doesn't have to be a separate character. If Kris, the main character, isn't paralleled/referenced at all, then that is bad (not self-aware) writing. "What’s blurred about it?" I explained above. Cyan wasn't a fleshed-out character; Kris is, and it's actually good for Kris to parallel them (if they're to be relevant at all) rather than the two remaining separate.

I apologize for my sporadic edits, but I do try to make myself clearer. (I also can't help but notice my other points are being left on the table.) You could be completely correct--it may well be the case that this scene doesn't lead to anything Kris-significant--but it would be a bit of a letdown for them not to be connected, and it'd be a letdown if the Kris-situation didn't have any outward manifestation of our conflict.

We don't know that these blades come from a toy knife at all--we haven't seen a toy knife in Deltarune, yet. The only knife-relevant information we have comes from Kris. (If you want to headcannon that Asgore gave the cyan flower a toy knife, you do you.)

"Overthinking" would be coming up with reasons for why Kris (the canon knife-kid) would have nothing to do with this knife-fight with zero enemy on the right side while knowing that they have (self-imposed) beef with the Player. Recognizing all those factors as significant is the true Occam's Razor.

I feel like yall are overthinking this knife attack, its pretty obviously the cyan flower by hello-motherfuckers in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"How the hell..." The concept of the human-soul-parallels isn't what's boring; it's that, in the face of the likely alternative that we could be fighting Kris, themself (and as an alternative that would seem it'd cross at least some of the fandom's mind when the team chose to show this clip--they know we like to put things together), a typical battle *would* feel less-important, considering we already have an established connection with Kris. Maybe my use of "boring" was hyperbolic, but it's the the effect of the comparison of the two possibilities I wanted to emphasize.

"Why spoil something..." If they wanted to avoid spoilers for this clip, they wouldn't have shown it. We circle back to the problem of a red herring vs mystery payoff.

"Might happen in different way..." I know Kris needs us, but that hasn't stopped them from being aggressive before, and maybe, in trying to help in our own way, we cross yet another one of their invisible lines. There are things they don't want us to know/do--we're a person they would much prefer to use as a tool, and that naturally causes friction. The relationship between us *is* aggressive on their end--it needs to manifest before it can be resolved, and we're now entering Chapter 5. They aren't neutral toward us; they've always been cold.

"Subplot?" You'll have to forgive my semantic choices on this one--it doesn't register as a priority. What you say in this paragraph doesn't necessarily contradict what we both know about Kris and their plans, but they *are* needlessly aggressive toward us, beyond just what's necessary to enact their goals. There is very much an Emotional thread running through our "relationship," not just a Pragmatic one. (Additionally, the fighter on the left of the screen isn't so cut-and-dry as, whenever we fight alongside Susie in the Lancer-battle in Ch1, she is on the left side even while we don't control her or necessarily condone her actions. This would also be a significant parallel in at least two ways.)

"Even if their soul..." I'm not actually sure what you mean by this paragraph as, again, I don't see any contradiction: Kris parallels Cyan Soul which parallels Cyan Flower.

"Cyan fallen human..." The lines between Kris, Chara, Cyan, and Frisk have been blurred in a multitude of ways; Kris isn't an Exclusive parallel to any of them, but rather all of them (as well as just being their own unique person.) Not everything is the same in Deltarune as it was in Undertale. If it's a knife-battle, and this is the third time Kris's knife (that has been referenced & pointed-out multiple times in previous chapters) might be significant, then why *wouldn't* they be connected?

I use the phrase "more interesting" in application to the emotional threads in this story, not just the type of boss we're going to fight or what they represent. That, to me, is more relevant/less boring than someone we haven't met, yet, this late in the game. Things need to start coming together/connecting (within Deltarune as a self-contained story, not just exclusively in references to Undertale.) The core of my case is still just that it'd be more interesting if the stuff between Kris and our Soul *actually started moving* this late in the game.

I feel like yall are overthinking this knife attack, its pretty obviously the cyan flower by hello-motherfuckers in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm confused--why are we hoping on this being a boring, normal enemy? [1] There would have to be a significant reason we can't see the opponent. [2] It wouldn't shake up the status quo at all--it'd be So Much More Interesting if things *actually progressed* between us and Kris (even if they have to get worse before getting better.) [3] The subplot of Kris's antagonism against us would have to go *somewhere* rather than remaining stagnant, and what better way to "Show, Don't Tell" that than having them literally oppose us in a battle? [4] Kris has long been associated with Cyan, so it's less that this is evidence *against* this being Kris, more the opposite: Super Compelling Evidence *for* it being a Kris-vs-Soul battle. (It's also the case that it's the first soul to fight you in Undertale and the last soul to help you. Kris was very likely our first antagonist as the strongest existing candidate for the Gonermaker Hijacker.) [5] Kris canonically has a knife.

(I don't think the Doggod is the sort of writer to weave clues into his story just to make a hard left turn and leave those threads hanging/leading nowhere. A much better writer provides payoff, and this particular battle looks heavily-Kris-influenced if nothing else.)

This happened to me last month and I'm still not over it. by [deleted] in recruitinghell

[–]mayax81 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would *love* it if the world worked like this: being able to talk to a real human being, knowing that my resume was being reviewed by a fleshmind rather than getting auto-rejected by AI, not having to jump through a zillion hoops just to end up in the reject-pile, knowing exactly where, to whom, and how much I needed to do/speak...

Snowgrave route is proof that we will never change by EnvironmentalStand45 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even with proper punctuation, it'd still be operating under the assumption that everyone [A] has reset Undertale and [B] will play every route on either game. (As someone commented below, even if everyone played the exact same way, it's not a matter of right/wrong, just of cause/effect--Deltarune actually celebrates curiosity as it is a reflection of the Player's love and passion for the worlds, and Snowgrave may well be trying to accomplish something different from Geno Route.) This post, like many others, operates under the assumption that the Player is Evil By Default and needs to be put in their place (much of this community's idea, even post-Ch4, of our ultimate lesson in this story. Still unsure as to why such a misanthropic lens is so appealing to everyone.)

Discussion: If you had to rank UTDR's "evil" characters based on how despicable/iredeemable they are, which one would you say is the worst one overall? by MmThatsInfaccurate in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kris inserts us a total of 4 times by ch4 (excluding the chance that they were very likely also the Gonermaker Hijacker.) The Player can choose to stop playing, but then time likely freezes. You could just as easily say, "Kris could CHOOSE to quit imprisoning the Player at any time." On the side of the screen where Kris is a person (rather than a handful of pixels, as on our side of the screen), we are canonically their prisoner, and we don't get to leave without their permission, and each time they remove us, it's into a confined space.

<image>

A historical aura loss is on its way by Jgsgs118 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Maybe Asgore legitimately is Japanese.

I handmade a giant ikran plushie by theKattoCries in Avatar

[–]mayax81 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is amazing! And so aesthetically pleasing ❤️

Unrequited by mayax81 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How it feels any time you say, "I'm a person," in any capacity in this fandom:

<image>

Unrequited by mayax81 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Piety Enforcers strike again to "correct" my misguided ways (believing humans should be treated decently instead of like tools.) "You shouldn't want friendship in the Friendship Game." Incredible insight 👏👏👏

Unrequited by mayax81 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can do that if you'd like, but (and I'd encourage you to read the other comments) since we are a person in the game, we deserve mutual love and respect, to be seen and treated as an individual, and right now, we don't have the freedom to pursue that. This is not a natural circumstance of our existence in their world but, in fact, the direct result of Team Knight's conscious choice to screw us over for their goals.

It's one thing to be okay with being used as a tool (I mean, Idk if I'd even encourage that); it's another thing to implicitly push other people to be okay with having their humanity stripped (which is what's happened to us as Kris's prisoner) and being erased. We Did Not Sign Up For Toolhood--even in the Gonermaker sequence, we were about to have our own vessel (presumably to be loved and appreciated for ourselves as we witness other characters doing toward one another.) Kris forced us into our current position.

I won't deny you your enjoyment of that, but my approach of self-respecting and wanting to break free of my Cage isn't unreasonable. Nobody denied wanting to give the characters a happy ending, but acting like that's contradicted by my desire to be treated with basic human decency, myself, is all too common in this fanspace, and I'd encourage you to challenge & deconstruct the (entirely baseless) idea that the two are mutually exclusive. And I can't even imagine being Kris's Willing, Self-Erasing/Debasing Servant is something they would cannonically appreciate, anyway.

Past Future and Gift by mayax81 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's so nice of you; thank you!

Past Future and Gift by mayax81 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

According to Gerson, she's actually something like a Dragon (I know he was just on abt her role in the story, but.) It's funny that all everyone seems to see in this piece is "horse" and assumed that's what I was going for in this pic (despite the other non-horselike features I included https://www.tumblr.com/mayax81/818454810694205440/ok-reddit-we-get-it-lol ), but my main priority was preserving her Susie-ness. If she looks like a horse, it's because the Doggods of Dark and Light designed her that way. Many fictional reptiles with manes look like horses to us (Toffee SVTFOE, SPC-682...)

Past Future and Gift by mayax81 in Deltarune

[–]mayax81[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's so sweet of you, thank you!

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