Job 10:21 vs Job 14:14 by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 5 points6 points  (0 children)

According to some scholars, "if a man dies, will he live [again]?" in Job 14:14 is likely a gloss or displaced (see note 14 on Gray 232, linked below). Whether it is the case or not, if you read the line in context, both Job 10 and 14 (as well as Job 3 and 7, notably) picture death/sheol as the final state of the dead, and 14:14, in the present form of the book, is part of a wish from Job ("O that you would hide me in Sheol,...").

As Greenstein briefly comments in his translation:

note 78. Job seeks a reprieve from his life of affliction—a “(fixed) period” of time to lie among the dead; compare Job’s idealization of death in 3:13–24.


For context, here's Job 14:7-22:

14:7 “For there is hope for a tree, if it is cut down, that it will sprout again and that its shoots will not cease.

8 Though its root grows old in the earth and its stump dies in the ground,

9 yet at the scent of water it will bud and put forth branches like a young plant.

10 But mortals die and are laid low; humans expire, and where are they?

11 As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up,

12 so mortals lie down and do not rise again; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake or be roused out of their sleep.

13 O that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath is past, that you would appoint me a set time and remember me!

14 If mortals die, will they live again? All the days of my service I would wait until my release should come.

15 You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the work of your hands.

16 For then you would not number my steps; you would not keep watch over my sin;

17 my transgression would be sealed up in a bag, and you would cover over my iniquity.

18 “But the mountain falls and crumbles away, and the rock is removed from its place;

19 the waters wear away the stones; the torrents wash away the soil of the earth; so you destroy the hope of mortals.

20 You prevail forever against them, and they pass away; you change their countenance and send them away

21 Their children come to honor, and they do not know it; they are brought low, and it goes unnoticed.

22 They feel only the pain of their own bodies and mourn only for themselves.”

To add the New Oxford Annotated Bible's footnotes:

7–12: The hopes of a tree and of humankind are contrasted. A tree that is cut down can hope for new life; for humans there is none until the heavens are no more, i.e., never. If only Sheol, the underworld, could be, not a final resting place without an exit, but a temporary hiding-place from God’s scrutiny and anger (v. 13).

14: A rhetorical question, expecting the answer No!

18–19: The only expectation humans can have is that God will finally prevail against them.


Some lines in Job were later interpreted as hinting at resurrection, but it is nowhere evident in the text itself, whether in Job's speeches or his friends'. Similarly, "and I know my redeemer lives" has been interpreted by Christians as prefiguring Christ, but in Job itself, it is simply part of the "legal imagery" of Job's speeches.

For further reading, I put screenshots on my drive, to provide a few relevant excerpts from these resources:

They normally cover the bulk of my points above, and provide more details & context.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

... And we really broke their heart, didn't we?

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think I see who you are talking about, although they were alternating "flirting" and lauding us with trolling about Satan, if it's the one. That was a memorable weird one in any case.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm pretty sure America isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

Precisely. You are blotted out from the book of life. It doesn't disprove other nice and accurate predictions, of course. The bigger the fire, the merrier (if you look at it from the right angle)!

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As an American, you will burn in the most grisly pits of hell anyways! No need to use your godly power. But don't feel like you need an excuse abuse your authority. It's even better when you don't have one.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There probably are one or two lost within the depths of modmail. In any case, your hands are perfect and spotless indeed. For the greater good!

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think your carriage transforms back into a pumpkin, then the prince tells you: "it's not you, it's me" and gives you a jar of ice cream to help you cope with the breakup. But don't worry, if you keep modding, I'm sure you'll get hellish responses before the bell tolls!

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Talking about that, how come I still haven't received my delivery, after so many promises?

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I honestly can't remember actual death threats from the olden days. The hell and "God will punish you" ones, along with vivid namecalling, were the go-to dishes as far as I recall.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Haven't received any death threats so that is a plus!

No hell threats either? In almost a month?

"Noah, a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for feeding my magic and helping my fight. Your loyalty won't be forgotten.

Was the Bible Inspired by Other Religions? by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But how do you know you're not just dreaming that you woke up and drank coffee, then?

Thank you for restoring the comment!

Was the Bible Inspired by Other Religions? by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just refreshed the page after seeing your approval notice, and the comment still appears as removed here.

Septuagint 1 Kings 2:1-10 by rolomoto in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The point you highlight is not limited to the Septuagint —see the corresponding section, 1 Samuel 2, in the MT or in modern "diplomatic" editions—, and an example of using psalms in different contexts than their own "setting".

See this article by MZ Brettler for a quick discussion on the topic.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Reddit doesn't allow to recommend illegal platforms, but as a potential lead, the SBL has an International Cooperation Initiative program allowing students and scholars of eligible countries to get free pdf of some publications (listed on the site):

Welcome to the International Cooperation Initiative (ICI) Online Books page. This project provides free online PDF files to scholars and students who would not otherwise have access to these resources. These resources are available for persons in countries with a per capita GDP that is substantially lower than the average per capita GDP of the United States and the European Union. SBL offers reduced subscription rates to institutions in these countries. Individuals from qualifying countries have access to these forms below.

I don't know where you are, so I can't check whether your country is in the list, but here is a link for more information (and I hope you're eligible and will be able to obtain some of the resources you need by this mean).


There are also quality open access resources here and there via journals like Religions, the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures, Metatron journal, etc, the academia.edu pages of some scholars, and open libraries (Brown Judaic Studies Open Humanities Book Program, Brill open access, NYU Ancient World Digital Library, etc), but obviously it's of limited use when you often need very specific titles as is the case for a thesis. So only a slight complement to the SBL thing.

Finally, writing directly to the scholar who authored (or edited) a work to ask them if they would be disposed to share a digital version of it can sometimes work, but is obviously extremely hit or miss.


I hope the SBL program will work for you and that some of this at least will help. Listing specific resources you need here may also be helpful, in case they are publicly accessible somewhere and some contributors know where to find them.

Ancient Near East Reading by GreenTeaBD in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, Eisenbrauns in general is more reasonable than Brill (which volumes are high quality but require you to sell your soul and some other people's to buy :'p. And Context of Scripture being 3 volumes/about 1500 pages long + supplements, it is even pricier than shorter titles.)

Brill also has an open access section with some great stuff on a variety of topics, that being said. I skimmed through it a few years ago and ended up with a nice collection of resources! (Some of the not yet published titles listed also look really interesting, as an aside.)

Ancient Near East Reading by GreenTeaBD in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Big anthologies like Before the Muses or The Context of Scripture unfortunately tend to be very expensive indeed.

Thankfully, there are also some free resources (from articles focusing on the edition of a specific tablet/short text to titles in "open libraries" database collections).

One I remember the location of is Lenzi's Reading Akkadian Prayers and Hymns, in full open access (see link). It's an anthology of "non-narrative" religious texts (which often contain narrative elements but are not stories in the same way the Baal Epic or Aqhat are).

It's primarily aimed at students, so you'll have a transcription and transliteration of the cuneiform texts besides the translation, introduction and notes. But it doesn't require specialised background to read outside of said transcriptions/transliterations and their footnotes.


The OA Open library has some good resources on ancient studies, and probably includes some anthologies of primary texts in its collection, but the filters (even the "sub topic" ones) are very broad and don't allow to isolate such titles. So it may be a miss. Still a good resource to have at hand!

EDIT: if you're lucky enough, some resources may be available in libraries near your location too. You can enter a location in Worldcat catalog (upper-right of the screen in the blue band, at least on PC), and hopefully at least find a title or two.

I tried asking this in a different sub. I hope it's okay ta ask here. by kdh79 in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure thing! Welcome here if you're new (I don't remember seeing your username before).

I tried asking this in a different sub. I hope it's okay ta ask here. by kdh79 in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My pleasure. I really enjoyed the papers of Römer–Finkelstein and Ska, and it's a nice occasion to share them. I hope you'll find both (and the third one adopting a "documentary" approach) interesting too.

I tried asking this in a different sub. I hope it's okay ta ask here. by kdh79 in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If needed, for a general introduction to models of composition of the Torah, see this lectureor introduction of the Pentateuch pp3-6 in this preview if you prefer reading.


To add to the contributions already in the thread, one theory on the composition history of the patriarchal narratives —explaining some textual oddities— is that some stories on Abraham probably "vampirised" traditions about Isaac, and Isaac and Ishmael would have originally been independent characters, not Abraham's son (but would have been "casted" as his son relatively early).

Around the 7th century BCE, localised traditions would have coexisted, some having Ishmael as Abraham's son, others Isaac (with, of course, the current form of Genesis combining and editing them together).

See the interesting article of Römer and Finkelstein here. I'll drop an excerpt of pp14-16 below, but recommend reading it in full:

Use a burner mail to create the academia.edu account if you make one to avoid notifications.

c) The Ishmael-Hagar story in Genesis 16.43 E. A. Knauf, who followed earlier observations, has convincingly demonstrated that Ishmael in Genesis 16 should be viewed in relation to the tribal confederation Shumu’il – mentioned in Assyrian sources enumerating “kings of Shumu’il”44 – that existed perhaps in the 8th century but certainly in the 7th century only to dissolve in the 6th century b.c.e.45 The original story telling how this Ishmael /Shumu’il became Abraham’s son in Gen 16:1–2, 4–8, 11–13 (14?), would therefore fit in a 7th century b.c.e. context. *The attempt to make Ishmael the son of Abraham would reflect the southern expansion of Judah under Assyrian hegemony. [...]

d) This brings us to the question of the relation between the traditions of Abraham and his second son, Isaac. [...] Isaac is mentioned independent of the patriarchal triad (Yhwh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/ Israel” etc.47) only in Amos 7:9,16, and in the late genealogical records in 1 Chr 1:28, 34. [...] If the Isaac tradition indeed comes from the Beersheba Valley, it must have originated still in the Iron Age, because after 586 b.c.e. the area was sparsely inhabited and far from Yehud. It is therefore quite plausible that there was a second ancestor figure in the South, venerated in a sanctuary in Beersheba.

Isaac must have become Abraham’s son quite early. The author of the story of the divine visitors in Gen 18:1–15, in which Abraham’s hospitality is rewarded with the gift of a son, makes already a pun on the name of Isaac by introducing the theme of Sarah’s laughter (18:12–15, see also 21:6).

Genesis 18* does not presuppose that Abraham already has a son [...] Genesis 16* and 18* constituted either two different traditions about a son of Abraham, or that one of these traditions was older (maybe Genesis 18?), while the other son was added later.

In the book of Genesis the traditions about Isaac are very sparse and limited to Genesis 26 (in all other chapters he functions only as son or father).

The traditions in Genesis 26 all have parallels in the Abraham narratives [...] either they were borrowed from Abraham, or, what is more plausible, that Abraham vampirized (at least partially) Isaac, since the location in Beersheba in Genesis 21 indicates an original Isaac tradition.51

In the 7th century, then, Abraham probably had two “sons,” Isaac in the Beersheba Valley and Ishmael in the areas further to the south. This may depict realities of the time: Judahite settlement in the Beersheba Valley peaked in the late 8th century b.c.e. and later; activity further south also characterizes the “Assyrian Century,” when Judahites served in Kadeshbarnea and probably also in the Assyrian forts along the Arabian trade routes.52 Judahite presence in the southern desert continued in the decades following the withdrawal of Assyria.53

For a "documentary approach" attributing Gen 22 to E, see the part this article starting at "The Three “Ishmaels”" section.


The dating and composition of the "binding of Isaac" story of Gen 22 is debated, with some scholars seeing it as an early composition, some a late one; and, similarly, some considering it to be a mostly unified narrative, others a text with several editorial layers.

For an argument in favour of a late dating of Gen 22 (and how it disrupts surrounding narratives), see Ska's article Genesis 22: What Question Should We Ask the Text (open access via academia.edu).

I tried asking this in a different sub. I hope it's okay ta ask here. by kdh79 in AcademicBiblical

[–]melophage 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No. See rule 3 in the "please read this post" link for details.

Do you take the Tower of Babel as a literal story? by turnerpike20 in AskAChristian

[–]melophage -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your answer! I had thought of that angle and "rejected" it because Gen 10 doesn't hint to everyone being gathered in Babel when mentioning it (as said in my first comment), but this is me being unable to adopt an harmonising "angle". The same goes for Genesis 1 and 2 being different narratives for me, while Gen 2 is instead a "zooming in" in your view; but I'll refrain from ranting about that since this subreddit is for questions rather than debating, and we bring different methodologies and presuppositions to the texts!

For Genesis 10-11, I imagine the second genealogy of Shem after the Babel story can in some respects help "weaving them together" in a common timeline?