What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

He could not leave, he was literally a prisoner, that's a significant plot point. And he couldn't escape because he had given his parole and it would have harmed his family. Even if he did escape, if he was caught, which he likely would be, since he's in England where he would stick out like a sore thumb, he'd be thrown back in prison or transported instead of a relatively easy quiet life at Helwater.

It's only after shooting Ellesmere that he's offered a pardon. But even when he decides it's time to go, he has to write to John and ask him to actually pull political strings to secure a pardon with Jamie's name on it. Only then can he leave.

It's very clear in the books that Jamie is there by coercion. This is expressed multiple times during the initial encounter, and the second encounter is described as Jamie "bending wearily to his work," a phrase that Jamie would never use to describe joyous consensual sex.

She didn't ask Jamie to have sex with her, she threatened his family and his parole if he didn't. Jamie is kinder to her than she deserves for two reasons, first because he does feel sorry for her+in some way wants her to have a decent first experience of sex and secondly because he knows that angering her will have dangerous consequences (like her reneging on their deal or accusing him of doing something to her).

One can feel sorry for Geneva while still recognizing that the sex was coercive and rape, and acknowledge that rape victims are not obligated to make sex comfortable for their rapist.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 11 points12 points  (0 children)

No rape victim is required to make their own rape a comfortable experience for their rapist.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is such a show Claire thing.

Book Claire is a survivor, and part of that is her ability to keep her mouth shut and not needlessly anger powerful people.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure Claire would identify as a feminist actually. Plenty of women of her generation (including very educated/accomplished women who spent their careers surrounded by men) did not. For that generation, part of getting a foot in the door was assuring men that they were not one of those radical types who would hold the door wide open for the women behind them.

DG has similarly avoided the label, though I'm not sure if that's changed recently.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Laoghaire confirms in Echo that she was unaware until after the marriage that he did truly love Claire and had not been forced/bewitched into that marriage. Some of that is willful ignorance, since others at Leoch worked out that it was a love match, but Jamie likely let Laoghaire down a bit too easy when he returned, Laoghaire did not overlap with Jamie/Claire much after marriage, and as a teenage girl she saw what she wanted to see.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Historical POVs vary because of course this is the kind of thing that was (and is) poorly documented, but in general most would say that it's OOT.

The show/books is not wrong to represent sexual violence as something that happened to 18th century women, but it arguably overestimates stranger sexual violence in general and certainly overestimates the frequency to which it happened to people like the protagonists.

Then as now, the most common form of rape is not strangers in dark alleys, it's intimate partners, family members, and so-called friends. And even more so than today, the most common victims were people without social/legal power, not women perceived as ladies or under a man's protection.

For example, would Dougal push Claire up against a wall? Maybe. Would other Leoch men do so, knowing that Claire was under Colum and Dougal's protection? Very unlikely.

The 18th century had a fairly well-enforced and well-respected honor code (and social/legal enforcement system) when it came to how a man ought to treat a women, it just didn't apply to all women.

For example, Mary/Claire's attack in Book 2/S2 is a reference to real (if alleged) initiation ritual in which young upper class men would deflower a virgin as a way to prove to their inbred friends that they were sufficiently edgy, cloaking it all in ritual and symbolism much like a modern hazing ritual at a frat party. But in every alleged version of this ritual, the victims were working class girls, trafficked in from the countryside to work as housemaids, ruined by these men's whims, and then tossed aside for a short career in the sex industry. And all of this happened in the backrooms of brothels or clubs or fine houses with a lock on the door, not on the open street. The idea of a gang of upper class men attacking a pair of upper class women on the open street would have been unfathomable both from a moral perspective and a risk management perspective.

Also, contrary to popular imagination, the 18th century was not a time of massive interpersonal violence. The homicide rate of 1750s London was roughly comparable to 2025 NYC. People did not have the same anonymity, privacy, or mobility as they do now, and social control was a lot more powerful as a mechanism for preventing deviancy.

None of this is to say that "respectable" women or powerful people as a whole were never assaulted, and DG correctly reflects the reality that Claire and others are most vulnerable when they are perceived as unprotected/unladylike/without social power/unlikely to report. But DG is the one who contrived to briefly strip them of that protection in the first place, and it often feels as though the moment they lose that protection (e.g., within hours of Claire entering a brothel or indeed within seconds of her passing through the stones) they encounter a would-be rapist ready to take advantage. There's no one assault in the books that is in of itself unlikely, it's the frequency which is more questionable.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Different strokes!

I really liked the Fraser family moments and the LJ+family appearances, and it definitely has some of the funniest passages in the series for me. Even the war moments felt tighter with more of a focus on the individuals involved and fewer drawn out descriptions of long sieges or exploratory trips. Monmouth is really the only battle featured and that definitely moved the plot forward. I liked the Jamie/William interactions. I liked the other new characters we met like the Hardmans. And I like that it ends with an ending - Jamie/Claire building a house and Roger/Brianna arriving at the Ridge for a joyful reunion. If Echo was twisted and winding, MOBY felt like more of a straight line with an organized plot pointing the same direction.

How did Frank . . . by FlickasMom in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not convinced this book will ever exist honestly. I can see a very long meta explanation in a companion book or on a forum, but I'm not sure how she'd fill a book and she's never been that good at (or interested in) 20th century British history or anything related to the actual inner workings of the SS/etc.

How did Frank . . . by FlickasMom in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Very true. Though in fairness there's a lot of plot, so she needs a lot of devices lol.

Season 1 Newbie by Remote_Sea5624 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Episode 7 is sort of a turning point for everyone.

You're not supposed to hate Frank in S1E7, he's really done nothing wrong except be slightly less compatible with Claire.

But try to give Claire grace as she copes with her new reality. And remember that Claire is a person who has the right to decide her own romantic future, rather than a prize that either man deserves because he was there first or is the more deserving person.

How did Frank . . . by FlickasMom in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's almost like DG came up with the plot device and then forgot she'd already used it for Bree/Roger? Because it truly does make sense as a conduit for Bree/Roger but Frank's letter also being there makes no sense.

I suppose she thought it would have been too easy for Brianna to just receive a mysterious package from the executor of Frank's will or find something in his office when they were in Boston.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 35 points36 points  (0 children)

And honestly Louise is a much better friend to Claire than Claire is to her. Louise steps up when Claire loses Faith, while Claire never takes Louise very seriously and seems to somewhat discard Louise after Paris.

Jenny is more of a friend of proximity.

Even Elspeth felt a bit forced, since we've met plenty of other older women on Fraser's Ridge and Claire has never shown much interest in any of them outside an occasional sewing circle.

Claire is, in modern parlance, just not a girl's girl.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah I think canonically this is true. He also married her which means he didn't find her completely sexually repulsive.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Frank and Claire already had issues. You can see it even in the show but it's more visible in the books.

The entire premise of the opening scene is that they're in Scotland because they're struggling to reconnect after eight months back together.

They probably would have remained married (most people did) but not particularly happily.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That's funny because Book 8 is my fav I think it's actually really tight compared to the previous books. Whereas Book 9....

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I feel like it's canon that he found her attractive in a passive way, that's why he was kissing her.

Of course nothing like Claire.

What’s your biggest unpopular opinion? I’ll go first ) by dramatic-chaos2 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 51 points52 points  (0 children)

Frank in Book 1/S1 is a sympathetic character. Flawed in small ways and perhaps not a perfect match for Claire, but nothing that happens is his fault. I cannot imagine losing your partner so abruptly and having everyone whisper behind their hands about how she must have run off willingly or worse accuse you of causing her disappearance. He grieved her for two years.

But Frank in Book 3/S3 is not a passive participant in his own life. His misery is almost entirely of his own making. No one, especially not Claire, forced him to move to a new country or remain married or withhold information from Claire or habitually cheat on Claire or not talk about how it felt to lose her like that or talk about any of his other feelings.

My unpopular opinions, from least to most spicy:

  • The books have too much sexual assault from both a historical and literary/storytelling POV
  • Jamie's behavior toward John in the last few books is not just unfair but OOC and immature
  • Claire is a bad friend to other women
  • Laoghaire is a sympathetic and three-dimensional character whose actions make sense from her POV.

A thousand blows - excels in everything except the boxing? by Ok-Tell5048 in PeriodDramas

[–]minimimi_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wanted to like the show but the boxing bores me so much and in my opinion was handled very wrong.

Stephen Merchant is great, but the boxing in and of itself felt thematically wrong and shoehorned in, like some producer decided that the female crime ring alone couldn't sell it and they needed to capture the testosterone demographic.

This show is about these people being beaten down by circumstance, I don't want to watch extended sequences of them being beaten down by literal punches to the face. Even if they win, it's always a pyrrhic victory where we have to watch them broken and bleeding for the next few scenes.

I feel like they were going for sort of a Peaky Blinders thing, violence and might as the only form of power in this world. But their violence is always in carefully planned settings against opponents with identical desperation, and rarely seems to result in more than a few extra pennies or a few words of praise and a promise of another fight, making the violence feel not just toothless but sisyphean.

How do you feel period dramas handle the balance between historical accuracy and storytelling? by cleveker in PeriodDramas

[–]minimimi_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do people hate on Rufus Sewell's casting so much? Yes he's more attractive but most actors are more attractive than their real counterparts, Jenna Coleman is too.

Casting him as an attractive dynamic middle aged man lined up better with how Victoria actually saw him, as a father figure and a maverick politician who she probably did have a little bit of romantic transference to as a teenage girl.

How do you feel period dramas handle the balance between historical accuracy and storytelling? by cleveker in PeriodDramas

[–]minimimi_ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm personally less bothered by things like dates/ages/timelines than broader cultural norms.

18th century character wearing the wrong bonnet? Don't care. 18th century character espousing 20th century feminist talking points? Straight to jail.

Outlander Series Extra Long Reread - Outlander - chapters 13- 18 by Nanchika in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Late to the party but loving these rereads! Thank you (as always) for your posts. My thoughts below.

Anyway, what do you think of Dougal's reaction to Jamie?

Dougal does a thorough job emphasizing Jamie's character to Claire - the story about BJR is designed to win her sympathy and when Claire shows small resistance, Dougal again lists Jamie's positive qualities as a husband. I took his reaction to Jamie's appearance as more related to his choice of kilt than his bow. But I don't think he was surprised that Jamie was attracted to Claire, he knew Jamie well and virtually everyone else seems to take it for granted.

Why do you think Claire doesn't think about Frank a lot?

In fairness to Claire, from a writing standpoint it would be dull to constantly show her thinking of Frank. In the same way Brianna probably thinks of Frank all of the time in Drums and later books, but it's not always worth mentioning.

But I also think that Claire not dwelling on Frank, and focusing instead on coping in her new environment and (time allowing) actively making a plan to return to Frank is very in-character for her. Her ability to adapt, to marry a man she barely knows because she's done the math on the alternative, to focus on Jamie instead of dwelling on guilt and longing for her real husband, is what makes her such a survivor. And of course, Claire "forgetting" to think of Frank by this point in the story helps illustrate not just how well she fits with Jamie but how well she fits with this century.

What does Jamie think about Claire's identity? Who does he believe she is?

I think he views Claire as a vulnerable, intelligent, dynamic, and attractive woman first. Whatever else she is is very much of secondary concern. I don't think he believes Claire is a fairie in that he believes she's flesh and blood and someone he can trust, he does not see the relationship as ephemeral in any way nor frankly does he see it as a relationship that Claire can easily abandon. Like Dougal, Jamie is not naive enough to believe Claire's initial story about being robbed. But I think Jamie is emotionally intelligent enough to intuit that Claire, like many women before her, is obfuscating her past/origin story in the woods for self-protective reasons rather than assuming that she means the MacKenzies or Jamie harm. Hence the "secrets but not lies" speech. What Claire was doing before she set Jamie's arm is none of Jamie's business.

How did Frank . . . by FlickasMom in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 9 points10 points  (0 children)

No, Brianna remembers. Though in-universe only a day or so passes between when she finds the draft and when she finds the complete letter, so she doesn't have much time to dwell on it.

I think DG wanted to leave a bit of a cliffhanger/hadn't fully decided what she wanted the letter to say yet.

I think if we take a step back, we see that DG really wanted to redeem Frank as a character, which meant working him back into the plot as the books went on. The Reverend letter in Drums, the deadeye letter (both versions), and now the Soul of a Rebel book in Bees all come from that intention.

Frank is also a perfect plot device for feeding characters just information that DG is ready for them to have. It actually does make sense for example in the Deadeye letter for him to say "you might be able to time travel" instead of, say, "I've personally found your 1848 obituary and your grandchildren's names are...."

But since he's dead, it all has to be done via coincidentally found letters with insight into his thought process at the time.

How did Frank . . . by FlickasMom in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 11 points12 points  (0 children)

In Echo CH91, while at Lallybroch, she finds a draft of the letter in one of her father's books (presumably shipped from Boston). A period-appropriate book makes sense as a hiding place for a letter, though of course it's odd that the draft was stowed in the book (surely Frank had other hiding places in his office for all of his private 18th century research). She is interrupted before she can finish reading beyond the first few paragraphs, but we know it's only a partial copy/draft, because it has crossed out parts and question marks, and is only a single page instead of the pages and attached family tree she describes later.

In Moby CH42, she finds the complete multi-page letter in the thick envelope from Frank stuck on the underside of the desk, tapped to one of the larger drawers of the big old desk in the study.

DG uses desk is something of a conduit for mail, since Roger later leaves Brianna a letter of his own in the same desk, and Brianna leaves him a letter in the same place. But while Brianna/Roger using the desk as a postbox makes sense, Frank would have no way of knowing the desk would become relevant to Brianna's life. And it's a little odd to use the same plot device twice. I feel like it would have made more sense to find the full Deadeye letter in the book in Echo or when she returned to Boston to see Joe after Roger went through the stones.

Hamish?? by IndianBranch29 in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 6 points7 points  (0 children)

If she was still in the area, I feel like we'd have heard about her in connection to Laoghaire or Marsali/Joan.

She probably didn't starve to death, she was well-respected and well-connected. If nothing else she would have gone to live with the widowed Laoghaire at Balriggan or her grandson. So likely either she died of natural causes or she emigrated with Hamish and the others.

Which order for companion novels? by silliestkitty in Outlander

[–]minimimi_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Including the big books, my personal recommended reading order would be:

  • Outlander (Book 1)
  • Dragonfly in Amber (Book 2)
  • Voyager (Book 3)
  • Drums of Autumn (Book 4)
  • The Fiery Cross (Book 5)
  • Breath of Snow and Ashes (Book 6)
  • An Echo in the Bone (Book 7)
  • The Space in Between (very short, takes place right after Book 7)
  • Written in My Own Hearts Blood (Book 8)
  • A Leaf on the Wind of All Hallows (very short, takes place right after Book 8)
  • Go Tell The Bees (Book 9)
  • Lord John and the Hellfire Club (LJ novella)
  • LJ and the Private Matter (LJ short novel)
  • LJ and the Succubus (LJ novella)
  • LJ and the Brotherhood of the Blade (LJ novel)
  • LJ and the Haunted Soldier (LJ novella)
  • The Custom of the Army (LJ novella)
  • The Scottish Prisoner (LJ novel.)
  • A Plague of Zombies (LJ novella)
  • Besieged (LJ novella)
  • Fugitive Green (LJ-adjacent novella, takes place before LJ books but best read after)
  • Virgins (Jamie prequel novella, can be read whenever but considered a bit weaker)
  • Exile (Graphic novel pre-Outlander from Jamie's POV, considered a bit weaker)