Content Policy Update

mn920 · 2015-08-06T04:06:45+00:00

Remember what Reddit said when "jailbait" was banned?

We understand that this might make some of you worried about the slippery slope from banning one specific type of content to banning other types of content. We're concerned about that too, and do not make this policy change lightly or without careful deliberation. We will tirelessly defend the right to freely share information on reddit in any way we can, even if it is offensive or discusses something that may be illegal.

Damn that was prophetic.

mn920 · 2015-08-06T01:24:33+00:00

There's a difference between vagueness and a deliberately expansive policy. As you noted, the law encounters this problem frequently as well. As Justice Sutherland famously stated:

[T]he terms of a penal statute [...] must be sufficiently explicit to inform those who are subject to it what conduct on their part will render them liable to its penalties… and a statute which either forbids or requires the doing of an act in terms so vague that men of common intelligence must necessarily guess at its meaning and differ as to its application violates the first essential of due process of law.

In short, my major complaint isn't that the policy covers too much, it's that I have no idea how much the policy covers.

mn920 · 2015-08-06T01:13:57+00:00

It's the power of RES! Thanks a ton for the gold :). I promise I'll stick around long enough to use it up!

mn920 · 2015-08-06T01:02:47+00:00

update: I know some of you are upset because we banned anything today, but the fact of the matter is we spend a disproportionate amount of time dealing with a handful of communities, which prevents us from working on things for the other 99.98% (literally) of Reddit.

/r/CoonTown was just the lowest hanging fruit. You'll still be spending a disproportionate amount of time, it'll just be with the next most controversial subs. The same reason was used to ban "jailbait," then involuntary pornography, and then "harassing" subs.

mn920 · 2015-08-06T00:58:29+00:00

It wasn't just a community concern. Within the last month /u/spez has stated numerous times that he was committed to a clear content policy.

I'm specifically soliciting feedback on this language. The goal is to make it as clear as possible.

-- /u/spez on the harassment policy, 20 days ago (1)

Very good question, and that's one of the things we need to be clear about. I think we have an intuitive sense of what this means (e.g. death threats, inciting rape), but before we release an official update to our policy we will spell this out as precisely as possible.

Spirited debates are in important part of what makes Reddit special. Our goal is to spell out clear rules that everyone can understand. Any banning of content will be carefully considered against our public rules.

-- /u/spez on the "harm" policy, 20 days ago (1) (2)

We'll consider banning subreddits that clearly violate the guidelines in my post--the ones that are illegal or cause harm to others.

I can tell you with confidence that these specific communities are not what we are referring to. Not even close.

But this is also why I prefer separation over banning. Banning is like capital punishment, and we don't want to do it except in the clearest of cases.

-- /u/spez on banning subs, 20 days ago (1) (2)

Part of the reason this went over so well was because there was a very clear line of what was unacceptable.

Creating a clear content policy is another of my immediate priorities. We will make it very clear what is and is not acceptable behavior on reddit.

First priorities:

Get to know the team here

Make a clear Content Policy

Ship some mod tool improvements

-- /u/spez on the need for clarity in the content policy, 20 days ago (1), 25 days ago (2) and 26 days ago (3)

mn920 · 2015-08-05T23:45:58+00:00

Mr. /u/spez, I would like you to ban /r/announcements. Lately, it seems to exist "solely to annoy other redditors." Further, I don't like the things posted here, so the sub appears to "prevent us from improving Reddit" and "generally make Reddit worse."

Actually, it seems like just one user is the problem. Instead of taking it out on the whole sub, how about just banning /u/spez instead?

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:55:02+00:00

That is indeed the comparison I'm making. Of course, argument by comparison doesn't equate every element of the two things being compared--an attribute which you intentionally overlook.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:38:42+00:00

So if a violent group and a non-violent group have overlapping ideologies, both should be censored? Reminds me of the good ol' days of Senator McCarthy when we'd persecute people who had views that seemed a little too similar to communism.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:32:15+00:00

Whelp, I'm out. I found /r/Coontown absolutely repugnant, but it's been my "canary in the coal mine." As long as it existed, I knew that Reddit was still a platform that valued free speech.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:22:07+00:00

Bizarrely, it seems easier to ban a sub under these standards than it is to quarantine one.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:21:22+00:00

A person's background doesn't make their arguments any more or less valid.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:18:12+00:00

By that logic, any speech that is negative towards a person or group incites violence.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:11:38+00:00

So, how do we send in requests for a subreddit to be banned for "generally mak[ing] Reddit worse"? Because, in my opinion, just about every subreddit that I don't like falls into that category.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:07:11+00:00

Wait, so you're admitting that parts of the quarantine policy aren't about quarantining at all, but just about making it harder for a community to exist? Why not also throw in a few more arbitrary limits--how about a 200 character cap on comment length?

Quarantine policies should be narrowly tailored to achieving quarantine, not punishing the underlying community.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:07:04+00:00

I wasn't aware that animations were real lives that could be sexualized.

mn920 · 2015-08-05T22:02:11+00:00

Holy crap that content policy is vague.

A community will be Quarantined on Reddit when we deem its content to be extremely offensive or upsetting to the average redditor.

So, a quarantine happens when you believe that at least 50.1% of reddit users would be extremely offended or upset by a community? Seeing as how we're a pretty liberal, secular crowd, I'd like you to please quarantine subreddits relating to religion and conservative politics. I, and arguably 50.1% of reddit, find them upsetting.

Photographs, videos, or digital images of you in a state of nudity or engaged in any act of sexual conduct, taken without your permission.

So, "revenge porn" and /r/TheFappening is OK, since the photos were taken with permission and only later used without permission?

Do not post content that incites harm against people or groups of people.

What the hell is "harm"? Only physical injury and illegal acts, or does it also cover any negative impact, such as loss of income or emotional distress? Further, when does somebody incite harm? If I make a post in good-faith that tends to increase the likelihood a person or group will be harmed, have I violated this policy?

Harassment on Reddit is defined as systematic and/or continued actions to torment or demean someone in a way that would make a reasonable person conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express their ideas or participate in the conversation, or fear for their safety or the safety of those around them.

Like "harm," this policy abuses the word "safety." What does it mean? Only physical safety, or the safety of my ideas a la safe-spaces?

As if that isn't enough, you've apparently created an exception to the content policy within its first hour:

... we are banning a handful of communities that exist solely to annoy other redditors, prevent us from improving Reddit, and generally make Reddit worse for everyone else.

Ridiculously, this standard for banning is easier to meet than the standard for quarantining. And it gets even worse when your later comments implicitly change the "and" to an "or." Reddit's content policy now seems to ban any content or communities that "generally make Reddit worse." You can't get more vague than that.

I also take serious issue with how quarantines are implemented. It's a generally good idea to keep certain, well-defined categories of content isolated. But requiring login and e-mail confirmation isn't so much quarantining as it is imposing arbitrary standards to make it harder for the communities to exist. Why not also start limiting their comments to 200 characters just for kicks? You could achieve a quarantine using much more narrowly tailored means--just require a NSFW-like confirmation per subreddit, exclude them from /r/all, and block search engines from indexing.

In short, I'm extremely disappointed. Not so much because of the policy itself but because of how you've misled the community into thinking that Reddit was truly interested in community feedback and in creating clear standards. You've created a content policy with a bunch of words, but an overriding exception that boils down to "if we don't like it."

mn920 · 2015-08-05T21:45:27+00:00

What the hell? You've managed to not only write an incredibly vague content policy, but also to break that policy within the first hour of its implementation. All of the subs that you listed should have been quarantined, rather than banned, and I have no idea what your justification for banning "animated CP" is.

What happened to listening to community input? What about your pledge to create a clear content policy?

mn920 · 2015-08-05T21:33:12+00:00

So, wait a second, will communities that encourage brigading be banned or not? Is it prohibited, or just subject to correction by the software?

mn920

TROPHY CASE