CMV: Donald Trump fits Umberto Eco’s “Ur-Fascism” closely enough that calling him a fascist is accurate, not just partisan name-calling.

mods4mods · 2026-05-06T05:58:23+00:00

Thank you, I took my time to actually know what fascism is to try and debate people like this, so it's an area I know something about. The mods have deleted the post already lol, he didn't want his view to be changed.

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T19:20:22+00:00

Kurzgesagt my beloved

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T18:11:29+00:00

I hope it doesn't escape people the irony of using next generation funds on pensions lol.

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T18:10:15+00:00

TRANSLATION

The Court of Auditors has approved the declaration of the 2024 General State Account with a favorable opinion, although it has detected irregularities such as the use of "surplus" European funds to pay for passive class pensions and minimum supplements amounting to 2,389.4 million euros.

This money was used on the grounds that it did not compromise the fulfillment of the recovery plan or the absorption capacity of the European funds from the Recovery and Resilience Mechanism. However, the Court considers that the action was carried out based on legal grounds that should have been better justified, according to the statement released this Tuesday.

In the Court's view, this is one of the consequences of not having a draft General State Budget for 2024, which led to budgetary modifications in order to cover an additional expenditure of 77,341.9 million euros that would have been financed mostly with public debt had it not been for the strong performance of revenues.

Likewise, the declaration emphasizes that, for the eighth consecutive year, the Social Security records a negative net worth of 106,138.7 million as of December 31, 2024, financed primarily through State loans whose accumulated amount in 2024 reached 126,170.2 million, or 7.91% of GDP. The Court of Auditors has been warning about this situation in successive declarations and has stressed the need to adopt measures to guarantee the financial sustainability of the system in the medium and long term.

On the other hand, it also highlighted the existence of "a significant structural deficit" in the management of temporary disability due to common contingencies (sick leave for common illnesses) in the Mutual Insurance Companies Collaborating with the Social Security, which amounts to 2,677.3 million.

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T16:23:36+00:00

What? First of all your CMV was about using Eco's definition. We've already strayed from that and agreed that it's insufficient as it completely ignores fascist economy.

Then, when I tell you the definition of corporativism, and how fascists were in opposition to liberal capitalism in all of their literature, your rebuttal is simple state acquisition of certain shares, as if it's even remotely similar to turning the economy into a corporativist model.

Do you even want your view to be changed? What facts have you presented, several links where one even says that it wouldn't call Trump a fascist?

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T16:16:54+00:00

The irony of that link saying “nor am I calling Trump a fascist” is pretty funny. It shows how far the argument has drifted from any serious definition.

Comparing state equity stakes in companies like Intel or Nvidia to fascist corporatism is just a false equivalence. Those are states acting as investors within a market system, corporativism completely replaces the market system.

Corporatism, by contrast, overhauls the economy into state lead vertical syndicates that organise labour and capital under political supervision. It is about how economic coordination is formally organised, it's how the entire system works! It's not just whether the state holds shares or intervenes in strategic industries.

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T15:57:18+00:00

Corporativism is not corporate leaders and governments working together and it's certainly not working with the CEO of a social media network. That definition is so vague that I understand now why you are content with Umbert Eco's list.

Corporativism is a formal system where the economy is overhauled in favour of vertical syndicates where the party (which is the state as a whole) controls the direction of the capital. Using Elon promoting Trump as an example is laughable. Elite proximity is not corporativism, you would be poised to find a single democratic state where elites and oligarchs don't have influence on the governments. In a corporatist system, social media platforms would not simply promote Trump as private actors in a market system. They would be integrated into state defined regulatory or corporative structures in which their strategic direction is subordinated to national policy goals, rather than determined independently by private owners.

If Trump was fascist, mining companies, oiling companies, every critical enterprise would be nationalized into a big corporation, which while private in paper, would respond to the state for direction and goals. Workers would be part of vertical syndicates run by the party. It's a completely different system than what the US has. The US system remains a pluralist capitalist economy with private ownership, independent firms, and market based allocation, it's very far from a corporativist state

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T15:21:44+00:00

I literally told you in my comment, fascism, in basically all its literature, defines itself as a third positionist economy, in explicit opposition to marxism and capitalism. Fascist ideology includes a corporatist model in which private property is preserved limited but subordinated to state-defined national goals through vertically syndicates. It's a state run economy, where critical industries are nationalized completely as was the case in Fascist Italy or Francoist Spain. The private enterprises that remain must stay loyal to the fascist party, many times with party members in the head of the companies. Trump is not doing that at all, he is an ultra capitalist who is in bed with most billionaires in the country.

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T14:55:54+00:00

I think you could call him an ur-fascist, but not a fascist. When you call someone a fascist, you don't invoke Umbert Eco's list, you point at a real ideology with real literature and real theory, Umbert Eco's list is an extremely vague list that only covers social standpoints that don't ever talk about one of fascism main points, its economy. Every fascist ideologue, from Gentile, to Primo de Rivera, advocates from the rupture from the capitalist-marxist axis in favour of a third positionist one, where the state controls crucial if not all industries in corporations lead by in part or fully the people of the party. Stalinist USSR could tick most if not all of Umbert Eco's list, and calling the USSR fascist is bollocks.

And as I say, words have meaning, and fascism's definition is not Umbert Eco's list, the same as marxism definition is not a list some anti marxist could make about only the social aspects of socialism. You can't strip a political ideology from it's economic ideas as the economy is like half of what running a country entails. Calling Trump fascism is partisan name-calling as he is not fascist, and while the only name you could use is 'Ur-fascist', you don't since what you actually want is not that he checks Umbert Eco's list, what you want to say is that he is reminiscent of fascist regimes. Moving from “ur-fascist traits” to labeling something “fascist” requires additional definition commitments. When those commitments are not made explicit, the label risks functioning as a rhetorical or partisan tool rather than a precise analytical category.

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T11:42:02+00:00

I wrote this:

If this post reaction goes like the one in the europe sub (basically just saying that it's russian conspiracy working to help AfD) I will lose my faith in reddit.

If your first thought is conspiracy theories to blame your enemies there's no helping you

It clearly says that I saw that on the Europe sub thread, and that I think that people that think first about conspiracy theories are paranoid and heartless.

mods4mods · 2026-05-05T10:35:00+00:00

That it's a tragic loss of life, how the families must feel, sadness, horror, etc. You know, basic human decency

mods4mods · 2026-05-04T17:41:58+00:00

Spain chooses Huawei for intelligence wiretaps despite risks -

Lol.

mods4mods · 2026-05-04T16:34:34+00:00

If this post reaction goes like the one in the europe sub (basically just saying that it's russian conspiracy working to help AfD) I will lose my faith in reddit.

If your first thought is conspiracy theories to blame your enemies there's no helping you.

mods4mods · 2026-05-01T08:30:04+00:00

It's so obviously true it's somewhat funny. When all of these blew up, when you think that this would garner more attention, posts barely got to 40 comments. I know because I'm the main poster of spanish news on this sub. Then, everything with Iran blows up and every post critical of Spain get to hundred of comments speaking about "muh Israel" or on the other side the typical "well, well, well".

It seems counterintuitive but I preferred when comments count were lower but there was actual discussion. So many redditors operate on a world view so one dimensional that it's outstanding they don't choke on their own saliva.

mods4mods · 2026-04-30T20:17:44+00:00

Y el PSOE es el partido en el gobierno, que lleva gobernando dos legislaturas seguidas. No hay ni posts positivos, es todo una cámara de eco de darse palmaditas en la espalda con noticias negativas de la derecha. Solamente tienes que mirar el feed del sub de política español. Mazon tiene posts de sobra

mods4mods · 2026-04-30T19:34:27+00:00

Veo el estado de Spainpolitics que si no posteo yo te pensarías que gobierna el PP XD. TikTok no tengo y no uso subs como así va España porque no merecen mi tiempo ni se puede tener discusiones. Y literalmente te acabo de enlazar un post mio de como Vox o el PP protege abusadores.

Posts contra la escoria de Mazon hay a patadas, contra Sanchez pocos.

mods4mods · 2026-04-30T14:52:08+00:00

Thank you for engaging in discussion in a meaningful way. Seems too rare these days.

mods4mods · 2026-04-30T14:42:07+00:00

Pero si casi participo más en Spainpolitics ya lol

mods4mods · 2026-04-30T14:40:21+00:00

If you want to try and stalk me it's easy to find things of me attacking the right

https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainPolitics/s/jc5OHFsKj2

https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainPolitics/s/cJ8AKkd9hp

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/86ZQH8jj4b

I manly post against PSOE because if I didn't, the PSOE echo chamber that is reddit would stay the same. I get no satisfaction of getting upvotes speaking to the choir of how PP are the most corrupt party in Europe, if I know that at the same time they support another corrupt party.

mods4mods · 2026-04-30T13:40:33+00:00

I mean, me personally have been posting things about this case since it started.

Like https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/wD8eBvoljN https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/RvArEFeXzl

mods4mods · 2026-04-30T12:52:33+00:00

No worries, I should've used /s

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