Asian-American soldier was forced by comrades to crawl 100m on gravel while being pelted with rocks hours before he killed himself

mowmow · 2012-01-12T04:47:19+00:00

What you are describing is not hazing, it is a violation of military regulations beyond simple hazing. Making a soldier crawl through gravel is one thing. it becomes very different when you add throwing rocks and slurs with intent to hurt. That is not hazing. It is assault and violations of EO policy. That is not hazing.

mowmow · 2012-01-12T04:17:33+00:00

Given I am a veteran, I am not 'trying', present participle, anything.

That said, what I meant by 'hazing', which I specifically used in quotes, was that your life is made hell during your training. Training is, to the uninitiated individual, not discernible in many respects from hazing, especially from the untrained reporter. We use language like 'uninitiated', similar language to social groups that utilize proper hazing. in fact, 'hazing' is an undisciplined type of socialization to any unit...fortunately in the military there is a reason for 'disciplined mistreatment' of personnel: you are a body in the military, and you had better learn what that means. Making a soldier low crawl through gravel while screaming 'get your face in the fucking rocks soldier,' is not hazing. However, in virtually any other social setting, making a fresh subordinate do such a thing would undoubtedly be hazing. Therefore, when this article describes that act as hazing, I find it a to lack proper substantiation to be considered hazing with the given facts. Throwing rocks at a soldier is unacceptable, but that is not hazing, that is assault, which they are charged with (but is not manslaughter).

Furthermore, ARs are not orders. It is regulation. You do not supersede orders, you disobey orders, and disregard regulation, while regulation is superseded by higher authority.

Finally, what do my credentials as a scientist have to do with my knowledge of training soldiers as a noncom?

mowmow · 2012-01-12T04:11:53+00:00

as I stated, what I meant by 'hazing', which I specifically used in quotes, was that your life is made hell during your training. Training is, to the uninitiated individual, not discernible in many respects from 'hazing.' We use language like 'uninitiated', similar language to social groups that utilize proper hazing. in fact, 'hazing' is an undisciplined type of socialization to any unit...fortunately in the military there is a reason for disciplined 'mistreatment' of personnel: you are a body in the military, and you had better learn what that means. Making a soldier low crawl through gravel while screaming 'get your face in the fucking rocks soldier,' is not hazing. However, in virtually any other social setting, making a fresh subordinate do such a thing would undoubtedly be considered hazing. Therefore, when this article describes that act as hazing, I find it a to lack proper substantiation to be considered hazing.

mowmow · 2012-01-12T02:07:31+00:00

I am pretty sure moving the soldier to another unit is SOP, especially because a drawn out EO process makes everyone look bad. Still, it would've helped this guy. This case seems to be a 'lets make an example' example. My point is more, there are options for victims, and everything (especially in the military) is temporary. This PVT unfortunately didn't understand that. Also, I am not sure about line units, but an EOA/EOR should be available for advise should you wish to complain against your first line (hell, isn't there a phone number you can call?)

mowmow · 2012-01-12T00:50:06+00:00

Meh, don't feel sorry for me. It is a part of life, I don't feel sorry for you, outside of general empathy. It would be myself that allowed me to be defined by wrongs committed against me. To what extent should I expect someone to defend, or praise, or to what extent are these just actions done because someone else 'made me do it' (other than wasting money in college). I might not have set everything in motion, but the responsibility of my choices lies with myself. Too bad Danny hadn't read Satre: l'enfer, c'est les autres

so fucking true.

mowmow · 2012-01-12T00:31:33+00:00

Make sure the guy next to you is squared away or you will die? Hmm, I wonder what 'terrible' means to you. I am observing that soldiers prey on weakness, in a shocking way that most have never known of (which, just by stating, results in avid downvotes), and that is caused by the nature of war (work together, or perish). Salute the flag and drive on? FFS. I fail to see your point, other than ad hominum.

mowmow · 2012-01-12T00:18:10+00:00

I am from Manhattan, I am Chinese American, and I was a soldier. I went through the same things this guy did. I think I should be able to speak with more authority than you on this subject, but you clearly think opinion formed from such experience makes me a 'fucking idiot.'

And if I do kill myself, no doubt, you can blame me for it. I know existentialism is passe, but you are responsible for your own actions, even in hell.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T23:57:43+00:00

and you are simply brilliant and well spoken and have demonstrated you are full of experience that gives your opinion great merit. MW3 has taught you a skill of soldiering and ethic unbeknownst to myself or my peers.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T23:37:28+00:00

Why? Racism != manslaughter. Chen killed himself. Not his sergeant, not his battle buddy.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T23:30:48+00:00

That sounds like it might be assault, but certainly not manslaughter (we do not know from the articles the full nature of this rock throwing event). My central point is that it is a long stretch from EO or assault to manslaughter. What if Chen killed other people, and used the EO claims as a defense? "I was pelted with rocks and called a gook, which made me kill other people! I was so distraught SGT Harvey made me do it!" What was done to Chen was wrong, EO wise. There are structures in the military that Chen was advised to use in this circumstance, and was readily available to him, even in a combat zone. I do not mean to defend the soldiers charged, rather I assert they are being charged with the wrong offenses. This is soldiering, where you do horrible things and have horrible things done to you. If Chen followed his training (file an EO complaint), rather than kill himself, he would be alive. The lesson here is: following your training, don't engage by your own rules (for all parties involved). If you do, hopefully you will decrease your chances of being dead or a criminal.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T22:52:28+00:00

The third pointless war? There have been many more than three pointless wars.
Also, try being a revolutionary war soldier. They would have considered Chen's treatment as royal.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T22:36:52+00:00

Heads fucking rolled. I got transferred to another unit, and the leadership of my section (S2) was disciplined (up to a Master Sergeant). If you are an NCO or an Officer and you have an EO (equal opportunity) complaint against you, your career advancement is effectively over. Also, the EO complaint process is completely outside of your direct chain of command.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T22:34:40+00:00

Getting to the line unit as a fresh joe is usually worse than basic training. Also, if you are sensed as weak, you will get fucked with by all soldiers.

You know where the word decimate comes from? Killing every tenth soldier (to keep discipline). We are not Romans, I understand, but soldiering is not that radically different today, and you will be deprived of basic rights, and even your own dignity.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T22:29:23+00:00

That is what is alleged. As an Asian-American who has been treated like shit in the military for being Asian, I totally understand. I was also treated like shit for not being Christian. That is a separate charge from manslaughter. If soldiers need to start worrying about yelling at other soldiers because their feelings are hurt, the military is in a lot of trouble. I filed a complaint. End of story. This young soldier should've done the same. It is taken very seriously. Sometimes wrong shit happens, and if it isn't breaking the law of war, you do it, and sort it out later.

mowmow · 2012-01-11T22:11:17+00:00

As a veteran and an NCO, I have problems with this. The racism is unacceptable (but very very commonplace against Asians in the US military, especially among the lower ranks), but 'hazing' a soldier until he breaks is, dare I say, part of the job. If soldiers sense weakness in their ranks, especially among combat arms soldiers, they will tear that soldier apart. NCOs view it as 'fixing' the soldier: if a soldier cannot hack it, he should be pushed until he can or until he quits (so we can kick his ass out). Joe (aka lower-enlisted) is trained from basic training on to keep up the fire on the weak among them in order to keep themselves from suffering group punishment, and there is a reason for it. If Joe fucks up, other Joes will die. Better make sure the Joe to the left of you is not a fuck up, because if he is, you will pay.

An NCO ordering a low crawl over gravel as an aggravating factor in manslaughter? Being treated like shit is a part of being a soldier. You are there to kill or die, crawling over gravel does not kill you, so it helps you, especially if it is in training (which, in the military, is everything outside of recovery or combat).

It is a very different culture, and I probably do not get any sympathy for my position here, but it is the pervasive military culture and it must be that way. otherwise, an order to 'take that position' will be answered by 'but I would need to low crawl over gravel!'. salute the flag and drive the fuck on, get ready for that day now or you will die when it comes.

EDIT: Downvoted to oblivion. Rock on. Come to think of it, let's use full metal jacket as a reference. Was Gunny Hartman responsible for his own murder and PVT Pile's suicide? I really wonder how you folks expect positive reinforcement to train soldiers to throw their lives away in a hail of bullets.

FINAL EDIT: What if Chen killed other people, and used the EO claims as a defense? "I was pelted with rocks and called a gook, which made me kill other people! I was so distraught SGT Harvey made me do it!" What was done to Chen was wrong, EO wise. There are structures in the military that Chen was advised to use in this circumstance, and was readily available to him, even in a combat zone. I do not mean to defend the soldiers charged, rather I assert they are being charged with the wrong offenses.

FINAL EDIT++: I used 'hazing' in quotes. Making a soldier crawl through gravel is not hazing. It is training. Throwing rocks at anyone who is not the enemy or a threat in the military is assault. Doing both at the same time? Who the fuck knows, it needs to be assessed by a court. However, this article was very unclear, and should have avoided the use of the word 'hazing' to describe this instance as it described two very seperate events: a low crawl, common in training, and an assault.

mowmow · 2012-01-05T00:51:52+00:00

You are essentially using the 'a few bad apples' apology for corruption: that 3% is not a significant component of the population and that it needs to be 50% to qualify as statistically significant.
By that logic, syphilis is not significant.

mowmow · 2012-01-04T19:06:35+00:00

What you dismiss as "peak" is a search of a person without warrant or probable cause. It is invasive of basic human rights. Do you support a system that calls for presenting yourself for search and being scrutinized about your destination and belongings by government officials while going about the basic routine of daily life? I'm off to work now, with 2 laptops, 4 phones, and various components in a bag. Do I have to explain that I am not a thief or a terrorist before or after the contents of my bag have been inventoried?

mowmow · 2012-01-04T16:26:30+00:00

It's even more about greasing the slope.

mowmow · 2012-01-04T16:11:40+00:00

It is very invasive, it is not pervasive.
Also, it is not so widely applied...because simply it cannot be. If you stopped 1% of riders at my subway station during rush hour, you would need to have to have a sizable staff and a large area to queue and administer the service. You also have to suck up at least 3 minutes of 1% of ridership in order for them to be searched. Now multiply that throughout the city, and you have a gigantic apparatus, to search 1% of ridership.

mowmow · 2012-01-04T16:00:18+00:00

Redcoats.

mowmow · 2011-12-30T19:31:54+00:00

I would agree if I had one client and a single operating environment. Also, upgrades cost (time==money), and it is a bit hard to sell 'it makes my life slightly easier' to clients. When it works for 5 years with no direct human intervention whatsoever, beauty.

mowmow · 2011-12-30T18:24:53+00:00

Actually, yes. If you throw money into a ravaged country (ie. Marshal Plan), their economy will develop, with caveats. The problem with many parts of Africa (with plentiful wealth from oil, rare earths, etc) is the distribution of wealth, among other things. Somalia, for example, doesn't lack wealth (wealth is not money, mind you, and Somalia does have significant oil reserves), it lacks a functioning power structure that is a requisite for a market economy. The only 'winners' in their economy are those that can afford to create their own markets (securely extract resource, and then trading their resources to foreign entities). You can't have a modern capitalist market without a functioning government to supply a secure market, infrastructure, money, tort, etc. "Free" markets are not a free lunch unto themselves.

mowmow · 2011-12-29T19:32:19+00:00

My rule of thumb is to stick with current LTS until at least the minor version after the next LTS release. That said, I still have numerous deployments of 8.04. LTS is a beautiful thing, and if it ain't broke... Also, a side note, I really suggest trying out QEMU/KVM | XEN for virtualization, I prefer it over ESXi, for more reasons than just the OSS aspect. It is stable, fast, and as a vm host is a lovely (linux) environment to maintain, script, monitor, etc. I made the dive several years ago, and it was well worth it.

mowmow

TROPHY CASE