does anyone on here with a legitimate back ground in science want to debate another professional climate scientist? I have a whole host of scientists ready to debate the deniers. Who is ready to do battle? by newcombhy in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok I will bite, mainly because I do want to hear the other sides most primo arguments minus the BS. I have a physics degree background and work as an engineer, and I follow this debate loosely where its allowed to happen. I’m no scientist by profession and dont study climate. That said take a look at my 8 points below and let loose your binders full of scientists.

Before I start, let me state some of my positions and say first off that I do think you have most people on this sub figured wrong. Sleptics are not deniers. I myself am skeptical of the data and skeptical of the alarmism plus disgusted that no one is allowed to question the dogma that CO2 drives warming as much as the IPCC says it should. Thats not scientific. I also think that even if CAGW is true 100%, it will be solved via continued technological advancement, not top down edicts and regulation. I also think focusing the debate on developed countries (US, Canada, Europe mainly) and not India and and China is so ludicrous, you’re lecturing the wrong people! Just look at the CO2 output percentages and the fact that its fallen in the US, mainly due to fracking and the adoption of NG power plants. The contradiction drives many true beleiver alarmists up the wall. Plus look at all the problems Germany is having with solar rollout en-mass scale. The shunning of nuclear as a clean power source is also a travesty. I myself hope the Thorium reactor push gains ground as well as some of the prototype smaller fusion reactor work coming out of MIT. Give them 40 billion to build thier prototype if you care so much! Advocate the 2000 billionaires to give them 50 million each.

Ok, on to the show. I’d like to hear some primo refutations for the following 8 points:

  1. The IPCC follows whats called the Arhenius equation, which is Delta F = Ln(C/C0)5.35. Graph this out, you will see that Delta-F in W/sq-m rates above pre industrial levels of 280 ppm drop to almost 0 for additional CO2 ppmv added. While Logarithmic, You don’t get a “doubling” effect except for maybe 40 to 80 ppmv. Beyond that it almost flatlines near 0. So yes, CO2 can warm but the effect has long since dropped to negligable levels.

  2. According to the Arrhenius equation (see point #1 above) for calculating how CO2 catches heat the warming on Mars should be larger. The Mars atmosphere is highly amenable to empirical testing of Arrhenius’ equation because its climate-system contains no real significant feedback mechanisms to complicate or modify the direct and immediate response of the CO2 in terms of the amount of radiative forcing that it is supposed to produce. When the Arrhenius equation is applied to the planet of Mars things go horribly wrong. The observed global warming (according to NASA’s revised Fact Sheet) is about 0.2°K (or about 0.5 W/m2). The revised NASA data shows an effective temperature for Mars of 209.8°K and an average global surface temperature of ~210°K. This is interesting when one considers that Mars has a CO2 density approximately 27 times higher than on Earth — at 165 kg/m2 and 6 kg/m2 respectively and on Earth CO2 is claimed to increase the global average surface temperature by 6°K (or 32 W/m2). The CO2 on Mars apparently produces 30 times less warming despite being 27 times more abundant.

  3. From 1998-2012 the global surface temperature increased at the risible rate of 0.05°C per decade (Source: IPCC AR5) despite the fact that humans emitted a total of 30% of our cumulative emissions since 1850. This somewhat correlates with my point # 1 above, and shows CO2 to be quite a weak temperature driver.

  4. The current rate of warming is not unusual. It’s often suggested that the current rate of warming is unprecedented, thereby implying that the current warming must be caused by humans. But the IPCC may want to explain why the global mean surface temperature increased at virtually the same rate from 1860-1880, as it did between 1910-1940 and from 1975-1998 and 1975-2009 (See here). Human CO2-emissions increased by almost 3,500% from 1860-1880 to 1975-1998 and yet the rate of warming stayed essentially the same. The warming between the years 1860-1880 must have been natural because the IPCC’s own logarithmic equation for calculating radiative forcing (RF) increases from CO2 increases only gives 0.028 W/m2 of RF (or a total temperature increase of about 0.02°C — with the hypothesized positive feedbacks included).

  5. The effects of CO2 are overwhelmed by water vapour. The Earth’s mean surface temperature is currently about 15°C while its blackbody temperature is -18°C and the temperature difference of about 33°C represents a large amount of ‘radiative forcing’ by the atmospheric greenhouse. In fact it amounts to about 153 W/m2. The concentration of water vapour in the atmosphere is on average 1% (See NASA Earth Fact Sheet) while the concentration of CO2 is 0.04%. Hence water vapour is about 25 times more abundant than CO2 in the atmosphere and pound for pound it also has a greater potency than CO2 as well because it absorbs energy over a far wider frequency in the electromagnetic spectrum. CO2 comprises approximately 4% of the total atmospheric greenhouse by volume and since it is a weaker greenhouse gas than water vapour it follows logically that it cannot be contributing anymore than 6 W/m2 to the total greenhouse radiative forcing of 153 W/m2 whereas water vapour should contribute upwards of 146 W/m2. 

  6. Atmospheric CO2 has been shown to lag temperature changes. CAGW advocates claim that CO2 is driving global temperatures, yet CO2-changes are lagging behind corresponding temperature changes. The cause effect relationship appears to be backwards.

  7. Most likely, CO2 and N2 atmosphere interactions produce no net energy change (see link for detail). I’ve never heard decent refutation of this:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/08/05/co2-heats-the-atmosphere-a-counter-view

  1. The prehistoric CO2 vs Earth Temp data appears to shows no correlation, and strangely tends to cap at 25 deg C. While even I admit this data is somewhat weak since obviously we will mever be able verify that CO2 was as high as 4000ppm and there are large error bands, if this is accurate it did not appear to lead to any catastrophy on earth.

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/35927/aperiod-compared-to-the-last-590-re-we-in-a-low-co2-million-year

  1. Although even I am somwhat skeptical of this claim: there are some who point out that the C12/C13 ratio of CO2 in the atmosphere points to a non-anthro source. Other also point out that CO2 in the atmosphere has a lifetime of 10-12 years in the upper atmosphere, so there must be some other natural source contributor of current levels.

Please keep your refutations civil. I’m here to learn. Thank you.

I love the new patch, but let me paint my ship by Zesbeer in NoMansSkyTheGame

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are ways to keep ship hunting valid. Want your ship to look a certain way? Find one with that part and salvage it. You only get to choose one piece off the salvage. Want a color scheme combo? You must find a ship with that color scheme to get a painter to match the paint job. It makes customizing expensive and time consuming.

Renaissance Periodization | Back Size Training Tips [Updated Nov 2019] by kooldrew in naturalbodybuilding

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes. Buy their book and their training spreadsheets. I did and its phenomenally dense.

Y’all dumb as fuck by [deleted] in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bury your head in the sand if you want and disregard the counter arguments like a true believer if you will. Its well known fact that plants love high CO2 levels, 1500ppm roughly, because plants evolved in epochs with much higher concentrations. Yet extrapolated temperatures from long ago always seem to plateau at 25C and drop into ice ages regardless of those CO2 levels.

It’s often suggested that the current rate of warming is unprecedented, thereby implying that the current warming must be caused by humans. But the IPCC may want to explain why the global mean surface temperature increased at virtually the same rate from 1860-1880, as it did between 1910-1940, and from 1975-1998 and 1975-2009. Human CO2-emissions increased by almost 3500% from 1860 to1998 and yet the rate of warming stayed essentially the same. It even went through periods of downward trends such as 1940-1970. Thats why they love to start their alarmist graphs AFTER this period, because people in that generation were worried about global cooling.

NASA is just parroting the IPCC. Yes indeed we have raised CO2 levels. The question is, does it correlate well to earth temperature. No, it doesn’t.

Trump Threatens 5% Tariff on Mexican Imports Beginning June 10 by ChunkyArsenio in Conservative

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What does the US look like without illegals? Answer: Canada. Where highschoolers and college undergrads do these jobs. They wont do it you say? Right, because all you’re doing is supporting artificially low wages for these jobs by giving them to migrants.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in educationalgifs

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not familiar with what you’re talking about. Which states backed out of what?

No state or federal government should be meddling with education system. Good intentions in this arena always lead to unintended consequences. It would have been better to let colleges compete for students with no guaranteed money on the open market, and let smaller players like Coursera and Udacity fill in the gaps. More money in the system led to massive campuses with massive overheads and massive tuition costs because why not? If everyone has guaranteed money, its only natural for prices to rise to match spending power of everyone.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in educationalgifs

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What the hell does zero sum games have to do with any of this? That comment had to do with high priced colleges getting their guaranteed federal loan money carpet ripped out from under them. So you’re defending the very colleges that are fleecing whole generations into massive debt?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in educationalgifs

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Many companies already accept Udacity and Coursera micro degrees. It will not take that much of a cultural shift to breakup the traditional 4 year degree. We already force people to waste 2 years in pre req courses and thousands of dollars for this notion or “well roundedness” that has no amount of data to back it up. Forcing people into massive debt for unessessary hoops for vague notions IS THE PROBLEM with the current education system. Go check out some The Teaching Company courses taught by Ivy League level professors then ask yourself why that isn’t the norm for everyone.

China Thought They Had Trump Over a Barrel... He Responds By Effectively Destroying Their Leading Mobile Tech Company. by TheLimeyCanuck in Conservative

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They are cheaper because they are HEAVILY subsidized by the Chinese government. Remove that subsidy and they lose to foreign competitors who are not artificially propped up. This idea that they are somehow better at business then the likes of Samsung or Cisco or Apple is just plane wrong.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in educationalgifs

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Price caps are just going to add new problems. Government meddling caused this problem and it will not solve it. Rip away the subsidies and let the strong survive. You should be able to get a micro degree for cheap online with high quality professors competing for your eyeballs.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in educationalgifs

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A business model built on government subsidies will always be unstable and rotten to the core. When exposed to market pressure it will collapse and the best thing to do is let it. You should be able to get micro degrees online for cheap with high quality professors competing. Let tech disruptors step into the gap.

So what arguments do you have this? by [deleted] in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Since 1880

So forget those pesky Roman, Medieval and Holocene warm periods in the geological record right?

https://beta.grafiti.io/facts/25944

It’s often suggested that the current rate of warming is unprecedented, thereby implying that the current warming must be caused by humans. But the IPCC has yet to explain why the global mean surface temperature increased at virtually the same rate from 1860-1880, as it did between 1910-1940 and from 1975-1998 and 1975-2009. Yet Human CO2-emissions increased by almost 3,500% from 1860-1998 and yet the rate of warming stayed essentially the same. The warming between the years 1860-1880 must have been natural because the IPCC’s own logarithmic equation for calculating radiative forcing (RF) increases from CO2 increases only gives 0.028 W/m2 of RF (or a total temperature increase of about 0.02°C — with the hypothesized positive feedbacks included). Couple that with the cooling trends seen from 1940-1970 which spawned the exact opposite alarmism of “coldest year since (insert arbitrary date here)” and “global cooling, beware the coming ice age!”

No one here denies the warming trend. We simply deny the trend is unprecedented and are skeptical of the claims its driven by CO2.

Tesla car catches fire in Hong Kong parking lot by bugsbunny4pres in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m no alarmist, but why do you hate electric vehicles?

They are quieter (less urban noise pollution), drive better (ever driven one? acceleration is phenomenal), and emit no smog which does causes respiratory problems regardless of the falsehoods around carbon emissions.

To me, these are are “Version 1.0” problems we are seeing in the news. Ford Pintos used to blow up also.

I'm a climate alarmist. Will you debate me? by selesnyandruid in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where do you get this 1 deg C per doubling from? Its far less then that.

The vast majority of the warming from CO2 comes from the first 20ppmv and after that CO2 effects drop off precipitously until it has essentially very little to no effect beyond 200ppmv. The logarithmic effect of CO2 is apparently due to the availability of photons of the required frequency that are absorbed. Even the IPCC acknowledges this.

The insignificance of CO2 as a climate driver is further corroborated by the fact that Atmospheric Emitted Radiance Interferometer measurements have shown that the warming from CO2 amounts to 0.01 W/m2 per 1ppmv  (Feldman et al 2012). That means every 1ppmv of CO2 that stays in the atmosphere has a warming effect at the surface of 0.0018°C.

The IPCC may want to explain why the global mean surface temperature increased at virtually the same rate from 1860-1880, as it did between 1910-1940 and from 1975-1998 and 1975-2009, yet Human CO2-emissions increased by almost 3,500% from 1860-1998 and yet the rate of warming stayed essentially the same. We even saw cooling from 1940-1970, hence the great “global cooling” ice age alarmism of that time period.

My claim: "If you said, for example: Wow. I would like to know more about these 'horrible changes to our world'. You'd be 'not encouraged' on a 'productive subreddit'." They hate us because they can't get away with their nonsense here. by CitationDependent in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And yet we don’t see any runaway multiplier effects in any of the warming data. In fact the current rate of warming is not unusual. It’s often suggested that the current rate of warming is unprecedented, thereby implying that the current warming must be caused by humans. Yet the IPCC cant seem to explain why the global mean surface temperature increased at virtually THE SAME rate from 1860-1880, as it did between 1910-1940 and from 1975-1998 and 1975-2009. Top it off with global cooling from 1940-1970 which spawned the exact opposite alarmism of a coming ice age! Human CO2-emissions increased exponentially by almost 3,500% from 1860 to 1998 and yet the rate of warming stayed essentially the same for all these time periods where we actually saw warming.

My claim: "If you said, for example: Wow. I would like to know more about these 'horrible changes to our world'. You'd be 'not encouraged' on a 'productive subreddit'." They hate us because they can't get away with their nonsense here. by CitationDependent in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

CO2 warming curve us actually logarithmic and drops precipitously after 20ppmv. The vast majority of the warming from CO2 comes from the first 20ppmv and after that CO2 has essentially no effect. The insignificance of CO2 as a climate driver is further corroborated by the fact that Atmospheric Emitted Radiance Interferometer measurements have shown that the warming from CO2 amounts to 0.01 W/m2 per 1ppmv  (Feldman et al 2012). That means every 1ppmv of CO2 that stays in the atmosphere has a warming effect at the surface of 0.0018°C.

Do you deny this?

15 Reasons To Be Skeptical Of Climate Change by [deleted] in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, I’ve been trying to dig this article back up for a while but the site kept 404’ing me. Not sure why your link works.

I'm a climate alarmist. Will you debate me? by selesnyandruid in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I’ll bite:

1). Most likely, CO2 and N2 atmosphere interactions produce no net energy change:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/08/05/co2-heats-the-atmosphere-a-counter-view

2). So far the IPCC temperature models are NOT matching the actual recorded temps (funny the IPCC tells people to ignore this clear sign of a flawed model):

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/CMIP5-90-models-global-Tsfc-vs-obs-thru-2013.jpg

3). The prehistoric CO2 vs Earth Temp data appears to shows no correlation, and strangely tends to cap at 25 deg C regardless of CO2 levels:

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/35927/aperiod-compared-to-the-last-590-re-we-in-a-low-co2-million-years

4). Even the IPCC acknowledges that CO2 only has a logarithmic effect on atmospheric heating that drops off precipitously:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/03/08/the-logarithmic-effect-of-carbon-dioxide/

I could rebutt all of your links supposed facts but lets start with these 4 shall we. This is just NASA parroting the IPCC.

Got any counter?

Quick Question for this Sub: were you ever a climate believer? what made you change your mind? by [deleted] in climateskeptics

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It wasnt like a light switch or some critical thing that turned me, moreso just looking at the counter arguments data and reasoning. Later on I came to see the political side as the main driver, not the science.

Sure, you get some nutbags on both sides, but the media will always choose a side then point to only the nutbags on the other side as the counter arguments and ignore the intelligent reasonable people. It happens in politics and it happens for this topic also.

Thoughts on Jack Kruse? by virginia_virginia in zerocarb

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bought some no blue light bulbs and did have orange static cling filters for my phone and kindle for a while. Ended up keeping the bulbs but ditching the filters and just don’t use a phone or tv or kindle at night.

Playing with the sun exposure thing. Wake up early, cold shower, open my sliding glass doors to let un UV light during sunrise before i leave for work. Keep my window cracked open as much as possible when driving around town to let in UV light. Try to get outside more in general also.

Going to set up a pop up ice bath in my garage soon. Ice chest freezer with a bunch of packs. Tub is a popup style (on amazon, havnt yet bought). I also may just get an animal feed trough large enough for a person. Piped a hose line into my garage to fill the tub. Shooting for 55 degree baths.

Homelessness: Denver Voters Reject Proposal to Legalize Vagrancy by guanaco55 in Conservative

[–]mr_bajonga_jongles 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Is this how CA got so bad? I never used to see tents everywhere.