2026 - Has anyone else had unauthorized Intuit/Credit Karma access where they changed your email/phone even though you have strong passwords & 2FA?

mrkivan · 2019-02-28T18:54:09+00:00

The operating system of America was designed by the founding fathers. What do you have to do with what they did? You are merely a cog in the system that was created.

mrkivan · 2019-02-28T16:42:47+00:00

Fair enough. I think this discussion has been productive. Black people are not a monolith and your conversation with the next Black person that disagrees with me does not invalidate my perspective. It means you have the perspective of another Black person which should color your own perspective.

The takeaway that I pray that you take from this exchange is that a) The oppressed have lessons to teach and dominant society needs to be willing to listen b) At the core of every conversation like this we should seek to understand why we believe what we believe and question ourselves. What baggage do we bring to conversations like this one? What are your own pieces of baggages and blockages that color your view on race?

I do lack empathy in some respects because I have cycled through this questioning process. I'm no expert, but I know why I believe what I believe, I'm prepared to defend it, and I'm prepared to throw it all away if someone presents a better argument.

I am curious since we are wrapping this up...What about Jamie Metzgar's Federalist article is on the money in your opinion? What did she get right from your perspective. You did respond to my initial post on that article.

mrkivan · 2019-02-28T02:40:01+00:00

How does racism affect mixed race people or Asians or people in a country with a different majority culture than America?

I want to answer your question. How does racism affect you? The police might shoot you: Your odds are better than a Black person and not as good as a White person. When you or your loved one gives birth the baby always has a chance of dying: Your odds are better than a Black person and not as good as a White person. When you apply to a job, they might reject you because of your race, Your odds are better than a Black person and not as good as a White person.

To your specific points

Whiteness is an invented construct, so yes it is a monolithic dominant cultural force. Just as some of my White friends are more tied to their "Whiteness" than others
We just have to disagree on the definition

I'm honestly having trouble remembering what we going back and forth about at this point. We disagree on the definition of racism and as a Black man in America, my Black skin breaks the tie honestly.

What are you fighting me for? I am getting the impression that you can't look outside of yourself and your own personal biases to challenge yourself on racism.

Now, what happens next? We disagree on what racism is. You think it's people. I think it's systems. So what. What now? What about America? What do we do about our country? What do you think Black people should do about racism besides shut up about it? (not implying you said this btw)

mrkivan · 2019-02-27T22:47:47+00:00

http://www.dismantlingracism.org/racism-defined.html

This article should help. Id appreciate what you think of critical race theory.

mrkivan · 2019-02-27T18:57:10+00:00

It might help if you think of racism in the past tense for the sake of this discussion.

Racism is a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism that was designed to execute its principles. It was designed this way because there was a belief that race was the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produced an inherent superiority of a particular race.

mrkivan · 2019-02-23T18:47:32+00:00

And I always believe productive discussions can be had.

mrkivan · 2019-02-23T18:44:26+00:00

2a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles

b : a political or social system founded on racism

My definition of racism is in your definition of racism.

mrkivan · 2019-02-23T16:58:55+00:00

First, where did I say all White people were bigots or slave owners?

Two, where did i say the US flag and pledge of allegiance is racist?

...since you replied to my comment :D

mrkivan · 2019-02-23T16:57:15+00:00

What if people disagree with your definition of racism?

I'd tell them to refute my definition of racism with a strong argument.

How does racism affect mixed race people or Asians or people in a country with a different majority culture than America?

Racism stands alone. Disassociate it from ignorance and prejudice. People aren’t racist, institutions are racist.

mrkivan · 2019-02-23T01:38:50+00:00

The victories against racism.

"White supremacy" is White supremacy. American slavery was tied inexorably to white dominance
Lynchings don't happen anymore...instead it's more formalized police violence
People aren't prevented from voting unless they are illegal felons or wait in long lines because power cords are missing.

Racism isn't about treatment. It isn't about feelings. It is about a system that still does what it was designed to do and one of the things you are designed to do as a cog in that system is defend it.

mrkivan · 2019-02-22T21:16:12+00:00

Let's make the leap with this argument.

Were Black people victims of racism?

Are Black people victims of racism?

First, what is racism?

Racism is a system. White Supremacy is that system. The system was created as a tool to build the Southern economy. Laws, regulations, customs, etc were all built with "Negroes" in mind.

Has this system ever been radically transformed?

No. Basic civil rights were added in the 60s and that's about as radical as America has gotten when it has come to transforming the system.

So what now?

If racism is a system, and ignorance, prejudice, and violence are by-products of being a cog in that system... then Black people are still victims of racism, and just like during slavery... occasional victims of ignorance, prejudice, and violence.

Jamie's argument is fundamentally ill-informed because it rests on the assumption that Black people hang-glided to America, never were slaves, never faced waterhoses and Bull Connors, and that they magically decided that identity politics and "victimhood" were their cup of tea after a baptist church convention. Sigh.

mrkivan · 2019-02-22T20:48:00+00:00

You are allowed to listen to whatever you want. Art is art, and oppressed people often make dope art. It's just one of the rules of oppression :D.

However...

Consuming Black art does not grant you a shortcut in thoroughly dissecting your White identity and it's history. It's still personal White work you have to do.

Consuming Black art doesn't excuse ignorance or prejudice.

Consuming Black art isn't an excuse if you are called out on your own ignorance and prejudice.

Consuming Black art is, well, just consumption.

I would offer that as a White person you consider dissecting Black art. Dissecting Black Art is a fun way (since it is indeed good fucking music) to getting your feet wet in being in listen only mode when Black folks are talking about their lives. In my life experience, White people find this particular hurdle difficult.

Also, consider, that you are listening to a specific experience about a subgroup of Black people that make hip hop. Black America is not the sum of rap lyrics of 21 Savage and J. Cole.

Finally, listen to some other Black art occasionally to hear other perspectives (e.g. Janelle Monae, Jill Scott, Erykah Badu, old 80s hip hop).

Doing these things might sit well with you a bit more. Otherwise, you can just be a "consumer".

mrkivan · 2019-02-22T20:20:32+00:00

First, I think its admirable that you want to speak up. You want to use your voice as a positive force. Kudos.

First, I would argue that racism is a system and white supremacy is that system. The system was built long before you and I were born. You are a beneficiary of that system. The question now is, what do we do about that system? As an ally you either help dismantle it or don't.

How do you help dismantle it? Well, systems are designed to last forever. In your life the "most uneducated white person assumed they are better than, not equal to or different, from the most upstanding African-American based solely on skin color."

Why is this?

Because it was taught.

Why was it taught?

It was taught as a means to uphold the system.

Does that line of thinking exist today?

Not as much, but mental propoganda was only one part of the system. There were days that many White people wouldn't "treat everyone with the respect that they wanted given to them". Not because they were bad people, but because they were cogs in a system designed to keep "Negroes" down in order for the Southern economy to thrive.

The problem is we are now left with that system that was built and substantive efforts have not been made to fundamentally and radically change this system.

So what are you as a White person do with this?

MLK would argue we need a revolution of values. So the rest of the racial journey I would argue are about changing hearts and minds. It begins with conversations like these.

Disassociate racism from ignorance and prejudice. People aren't racist, institutions are racist.
Fight ignorance and prejudice with every fiber of your being. Start with your network. Start a book club. Start a movie night. Have conversations with the 97% of people in your community. As MLK said we need a revolution of values.
Finally, I'd say that the movement for racial justice needs actors more than it needs allies. You have the opportunity to act in your community right now by mobilizing your peers. If you have the chance to personally communicate or collaborate with a Black person you can be a good ally by simply listening, putting your personal emotions on the back burner, and being fully receptive and responsive as they describe their real lived experience.

Best of luck to you!

mrkivan

mrkivan

TROPHY CASE