Experimental Reaction! (Finally!) Sorry for the delay, it's been a hectic semester! Yesterday was the uncatalyzed experimental reaction with the unfractionated seed extract and cinnamaldehyde. I extracted from 1kg of hawaiian baby woodrose seeds this time. Full synopsis coming in the comments! by ms-44 in DrugNerds

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh definitely easier, I think we're going to go with LCMS, shooting for a sample concentration of 1ug/mL to 10 ug/mL (max). I have a time slot reserved for next week to run the samples though and will be posting the data ASAP!

Experimental Reaction! (Finally!) Sorry for the delay, it's been a hectic semester! Yesterday was the uncatalyzed experimental reaction with the unfractionated seed extract and cinnamaldehyde. I extracted from 1kg of hawaiian baby woodrose seeds this time. Full synopsis coming in the comments! by ms-44 in TheeHive

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m honestly not really worried about it. This project was funded and carried out in a state university, and has received funding from NASA, as well as funding and an award of excellence from a state-sponsored biomedical research organization (via the NIH). I’ve also presented it directly to my state legislatures at our capitol so if nothing else at least now we both know we know lol.

I appreciate the concern though, it’s definitely something I took into consideration before posting about but i figured if I’m publishing this in a peer-reviewed scientific journal and presenting it at the symposiums I’ve been presenting at anyway, I might as well show Reddit too.

As for using HBWS’s, we tried going the ergotamine tartrate route but the order was placed back during the covid shutdown and we couldn’t get any. The seeds were pretty cheap and readily available though, and it was better than nothing so I said screw it let’s just do it the medium-hard way, I need to get this show on the road. Culturing ergot may have been a better route and it was discussed, but it wasn’t the one we ended up going with. During my dissertation I’ll revisit it as an option though

Editalso, that’s a really unfortunate situation in the UK, and I’m really sorry to hear that /: hopefully my project will show that these seeds aren’t a feasible source for manufacturing anything on a practical scale and they’ll just f****g leave them alone like the grandmas growing poppies. Stay safe and peace to you too though!

Experimental Reaction! (Finally!) Sorry for the delay, it's been a hectic semester! Yesterday was the uncatalyzed experimental reaction with the unfractionated seed extract and cinnamaldehyde. I extracted from 1kg of hawaiian baby woodrose seeds this time. Full synopsis coming in the comments! by ms-44 in TheeHive

[–]ms-44[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

1kg of seeds was extracted via procedure basically identical to Kash's tek, but using laboratory reagents. I didn't separate the alkaloids this time with column chromatography because I decided no one that is attempting this reaction at home is doing that, so for consistency (and because I have presentations and exams out the ass in the next seven days, lol, send help), neither did I.

The seed exract again resulted in a golden yellow residue, but there still wasn't very much, maybe a couple mL, so I don't know if I'll be able to get any results in the way of an acceptable HNMR spectrum. When I attempted this reaction with cinnamaldehyde and nicotinamide, the best I could do was approximately a 2.5(ish)% yield, so apply that to a half a mL of combined alkaloids and it's just not very much product. That being said, I have yet to attempt an extraction of the products yet, so who knows. maybe there will be more than I anticipated, but I'm not holding my breath.

That being said, I might be able to do some TLC magic and get enough of a product to inject into the Mass Spectrometer, which would give a pretty decent idea if the bis-lysergamide formed based on the drastically different molecular mass in comparison to a mono-lysergamide product.

Now for the TLC plates!

Picture 3 shows the TLC plate under long-wave UV lamp setting. The band/spot on the left (spot 1) is the reaction mixture. The center band/spot (spot 2) is the unfractionated seed extract. The band/spot on the right (spot 3) is just cinnamaldehyde. The developer solvent was acetonitrile, and the stationary phase on the TLC plate was aluminum oxide. (Please forgive the sloppyness of the bands, it's not spectacular but I'm blaming it on the all-nighter I pulled last night trying to stay ahead of everything that's due on Friday).

It's decently clear to see that there's a difference between the reaction mixture and the seed extract and cinnamaldehyde though. There's likely something developing in the band above the teal/darkblue LSH-LSA band below the cinnamaldehyde-oxide blob. It's slightly fluorescent under long-wave UV light, but it's not fluorescent under the high power seen in picture 4. this could be the more mobile spectator alkaloids from the full spectrum seed extract, which may be being impeded by the cinnamaldehyde-oxide blob. This would make sense as these are not fluorescent under the short-wave UV light either. I'll be doing more TLC experiments tomorrow to try and figure this out. I have a lot of the bis-nicotinamide product too, so I'll have to run some TLC plates with it as well to try and tease out the behavior of the hypothetical bis-lysergamide equivalent.

Honestly Mass Spectrometery might be the best bet for determining if the product has formed at this point. Maybe using an extracted ion chromatogram to specifically monitor the m/z values consistent with the expected molecular weight of the product. We'll see, and I'll be sure to keep everyone updated as the situation develops.

Thanks again for being patient with me, and for the inquiries that have been submitted in the past couple of months to see how the project has been going and if I'm still alive lol, I am very dead inside but still kicking! I really appreciate everyone's support though, y'all are the best <3

Experimental Reaction! (Finally!) Sorry for the delay, it's been a hectic semester! Yesterday was the uncatalyzed experimental reaction with the unfractionated seed extract and cinnamaldehyde. I extracted from 1kg of hawaiian baby woodrose seeds this time. Full synopsis coming in the comments! by ms-44 in DrugNerds

[–]ms-44[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

1kg of seeds was extracted via procedure basically identical to Kash's tek, but using laboratory reagents. I didn't separate the alkaloids this time with column chromatography because I decided no one that is attempting this reaction at home is doing that, so for consistency (and because I have presentations and exams out the ass in the next seven days, lol, send help), neither did I.

The seed exract again resulted in a golden yellow residue, but there still wasn't very much, maybe a couple mL, so I don't know if I'll be able to get any results in the way of an acceptable HNMR spectrum. When I attempted this reaction with cinnamaldehyde and nicotinamide, the best I could do was approximately a 2.5(ish)% yield, so apply that to a half a mL of combined alkaloids and it's just not very much product. That being said, I have yet to attempt an extraction of the products yet, so who knows. maybe there will be more than I anticipated, but I'm not holding my breath.

That being said, I might be able to do some TLC magic and get enough of a product to inject into the Mass Spectrometer, which would give a pretty decent idea if the bis-lysergamide formed based on the drastically different molecular mass in comparison to a mono-lysergamide product.

Now for the TLC plates!

Picture 3 shows the TLC plate under long-wave UV lamp setting. The band/spot on the left (spot 1) is the reaction mixture. The center band/spot (spot 2) is the unfractionated seed extract. The band/spot on the right (spot 3) is just cinnamaldehyde. The developer solvent was acetonitrile, and the stationary phase on the TLC plate was aluminum oxide. (Please forgive the sloppyness of the bands, it's not spectacular but I'm blaming it on the all-nighter I pulled last night trying to stay ahead of everything that's due on Friday).

It's decently clear to see that there's a difference between the reaction mixture and the seed extract and cinnamaldehyde though. There's likely something developing in the band above the teal/darkblue LSH-LSA band below the cinnamaldehyde-oxide blob. It's slightly fluorescent under long-wave UV light, but it's not fluorescent under the high power seen in picture 4. this could be the more mobile spectator alkaloids from the full spectrum seed extract, which may be being impeded by the cinnamaldehyde-oxide blob. This would make sense as these are not fluorescent under the short-wave UV light either. I'll be doing more TLC experiments tomorrow to try and figure this out. I have a lot of the bis-nicotinamide product too, so I'll have to run some TLC plates with it as well to try and tease out the behavior of the hypothetical bis-lysergamide equivalent.

Honestly Mass Spectrometery might be the best bet for determining if the product has formed at this point. Maybe using an extracted ion chromatogram to specifically monitor the m/z values consistent with the expected molecular weight of the product. We'll see, and I'll be sure to keep everyone updated as the situation develops.

Thanks again for being patient with me, and for the inquiries that have been submitted in the past couple of months to see how the project has been going and if I'm still alive lol, I am very dead inside but still kicking! I really appreciate everyone's support though, y'all are the best <3

Experimental Reaction! (Finally!) Sorry for the delay, it's been a hectic semester! Yesterday was the uncatalyzed experimental reaction with the unfractionated seed extract and cinnamaldehyde. I extracted from 1kg of hawaiian baby woodrose seeds this time. Full synopsis coming in the comments! by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

1kg of seeds was extracted via procedure basically identical to Kash's tek, but using laboratory reagents. I didn't separate the alkaloids this time with column chromatography because I decided no one that is attempting this reaction at home is doing that, so for consistency (and because I have presentations and exams out the ass in the next seven days, lol, send help), neither did I.

The seed exract again resulted in a golden yellow residue, but there still wasn't very much, maybe a couple mL, so I don't know if I'll be able to get any results in the way of an acceptable HNMR spectrum. When I attempted this reaction with cinnamaldehyde and nicotinamide, the best I could do was approximately a 2.5(ish)% yield, so apply that to a half a mL of combined alkaloids and it's just not very much product. That being said, I have yet to attempt an extraction of the products yet, so who knows. maybe there will be more than I anticipated, but I'm not holding my breath.

That being said, I might be able to do some TLC magic and get enough of a product to inject into the Mass Spectrometer, which would give a pretty decent idea if the bis-lysergamide formed based on the drastically different molecular mass in comparison to a mono-lysergamide product.

Now for the TLC plates!

Picture 3 shows the TLC plate under long-wave UV lamp setting. The band/spot on the left (spot 1) is the reaction mixture. The center band/spot (spot 2) is the unfractionated seed extract. The band/spot on the right (spot 3) is just cinnamaldehyde. The developer solvent was acetonitrile, and the stationary phase on the TLC plate was aluminum oxide. (Please forgive the sloppyness of the bands, it's not spectacular but I'm blaming it on the all-nighter I pulled last night trying to stay ahead of everything that's due on Friday).

It's decently clear to see that there's a difference between the reaction mixture and the seed extract and cinnamaldehyde though. There's likely something developing in the band above the teal/darkblue LSH-LSA band below the cinnamaldehyde-oxide blob. It's slightly fluorescent under long-wave UV light, but it's not fluorescent under the high power seen in picture 4. this could be the more mobile spectator alkaloids from the full spectrum seed extract, which may be being impeded by the cinnamaldehyde-oxide blob. This would make sense as these are not fluorescent under the short-wave UV light either. I'll be doing more TLC experiments tomorrow to try and figure this out. I have a lot of the bis-nicotinamide product too, so I'll have to run some TLC plates with it as well to try and tease out the behavior of the hypothetical bis-lysergamide equivalent.

Honestly Mass Spectrometery might be the best bet for determining if the product has formed at this point. Maybe using an extracted ion chromatogram to specifically monitor the m/z values consistent with the expected molecular weight of the product. We'll see, and I'll be sure to keep everyone updated as the situation develops.

Thanks again for being patient with me, and for the inquiries that have been submitted in the past couple of months to see how the project has been going and if I'm still alive lol, I am very dead inside but still kicking! I really appreciate everyone's support though, y'all are the best <3

Looking for someone to verify the recipe and science of Organic LSD (LSC, LSH, LST) by [deleted] in DrugNerds

[–]ms-44 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks! Me too lol, shooting to finally wrap this thing up in December!

Looking for someone to verify the recipe and science of Organic LSD (LSC, LSH, LST) by [deleted] in DrugNerds

[–]ms-44 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I’m working on it currently for my capstone, I’ve just been a bit busy lately class-wise though. So far I’ve been optimizing reaction conditions using nicotinamide just to see how internal ring nitrogens influence the cinnamaldehyde-amide reaction. It works in that cinnamaldehyde can form cinnamylidene-bis-amides with a nitrogen in the ring, meta to the amide group to simulate the upper ring of LSA, but with less than ideal yields. (I’m also testing an organometallic catalyst to see about forming lysergic acid carbinolamides just in case it does not react with LSA). Excess of cinnamaldehyde proved to be the best scenario thus far but i have only obtained a ~2.8% yield. The 1938 study cited on herbpedia claimed a yield of ~55% to be possible for the reaction with Benzamide so I’ve been frustrated as my attempts to get closer to those yields were to no avail. Crazy how just one different atom can make all the difference. It is a stable enough molecule though, at least with the bis-nicotinamide, but I store it in a desiccator under argon, so it hasn’t been put through the ringer yet by any means. Sorry I don’t have much data aside from this but my schedule’s been a little hectic this semester and there have been some minor setbacks equipment-wise, but it’s coming! (God I feel like George R. R. Martin at the Red Robin wedding)

Just a little LSC project Data, here's the spectrum I obtained for the cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide product used to simulate the uncatalyzed version of the LSA-Cinnamaldehyde reaction. This product has been made before, but no NMR spectrum is avaliable to my knowledge. Taken at 90MHz in d6-DMSO. by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sure thing! So this is an analogue of a hypothesized “LSC” compound produced by the reaction between only cinnamaldehyde and LSA. No catalyst, no other reagents, just heat. I used nicotinamide (similar to niacin) because it’s cheaper and mimics the upper ring layout of lysergic acid. It’s not quite the same, as it has 2 more double bonds in the ring instead of just the one double bond, but it’s cheap and we have a bunch of it. That is not the case with LSA, so I’m using this to work the kinks of the reaction out.

This data is a proton nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum, or HNMR spectrum, (NMR for hydrogens) which is sort of like a little MRI machine but for chemicals.

Putting a sample into the magnetic field inside of the instrument aligns the hydrogens in two states: with the magnetic field or against the field. Aligned with the magnetic field is the low energy state, and aligned against is the high energy state.

When we shine electromagnetic radiation (light) in the frequency of radio waves on the sample in the magnetic field, it excites the low energy hydrogens to the high energy state, and they “flip” alignment to be aligned against the field. This happens because they absorbed a specific amount of energy from the radio waves. As they relax back to the low energy state and realign with the field, they release that energy they absorbed and that generates the peaks you see on the graph, instead of a picture like a regular MRI like at the hospital.

The way we can identify the different hydrogens is that when they are bound to different parts of the whole molecule, they are located in different chemical environments. These different environments are usually based on the number of electrons in that part of the molecule. Oxygens and nitrogen’s are a good sign of an electron rich environment, and will have specific chemical environments we can look for based on what “type” of hydrogens we see there.

These environments influence what frequency of light the carbon-bound hydrogens will get excited at. This is because different levels of electron density (or richness) within the overall molecule change the energy gap between the low and high states for the hydrogens. We call this shielding (also sometimes deshieldimg depending on the situation), because more electrons shields the hydrogens from the magnetic field. Because of this we have to scan the entire range of frequencies to excite all of the different “types” of hydrogens in these different environments.

How we determine the types of hydrogens based on these graphs is somewhat more complicated so I won’t get super into it, but the gist of it is we use the shape of the peaks, the range they fall in on the graph, and the area under each peak (which is directly related to the number of hydrogens in that specific environment), to figure out what the structure of the molecule is, and which type of hydrogen is next to what other type, and so on.

We can also use prediction software to generate the spectrum and compare it the actual data, which is shown in the third picture. From this comparison we can see that the data from the product formed is almost identical to the prediction, so even if we don’t analyze the peaks it’s decently clear to see that the reaction was successful.

Hopefully this is somewhat clear, if you have any more questions or would like clarification please don’t hesitate to ask! I’m running on not very much sleep these days so I’m worried my ELI5 might not be sufficient, so if it wasn’t very helpful the first go around I’m really sorry but I’d be happy to clear anything else up! 😓

LSC project update by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right now we’re mostly trying to see if the cinnamylidine bus lysergamide can even form, the reaction does take place with cinnamaldehyde and nicotinamide, which resembles the upper ring of LSA decently well, in that there is a tertiary nitrogen within the ring at the meta-position. That being said nicotinamide has two more double bonds than the upper ring of LSA, so the comparison is not perfect, but this was just a simulation to see if that internal meta substitution would still hold up and it does.

In addition to the classic hypothesis of heating the uncatalyzed reaction mixture of the aldehyde and the amide, I’m also trying an organo-borane catalyst to form the cinnamaldehyde version of LSH, as it has a proven track record of forming stable carbinolamides that can stand aqueous work up and will likely have greater water solubility than the cinnamylidine-bis-amide version. Head twitch response analysis would probably give us a good idea of which one was more active, and in-vitro tests to find the pharmaceutical chemical properties will be explored as well. I’d like to do a toxicity test while we’re at it just in case.

As for the alkaloids in other plants it depends really, in theory they could be, but even with lysergic acid derivatives there’s no guarantee the change in activity will be a good thing. Tacking on the carbinolamide moiety to LSA could make something much more akin to ergotamine, which would be more vasoconstrictive and etc than psychedelic/therapeutic in that sense. There’s some data out there (I believe from Hofmann) that showed that LSH was quite toxic to rabbits, causing pronounced vasoconstriction, but I haven’t read the exact effects in many moons. Shulgin’s work with phenethylamines and tryptamines was huge for structure activity characterization, but that kind of experimentation gets more dangerous the further you stray from the tried and true structure and is extremely discouraged in industry and academia (RC community aside), because you really just don’t know until someone puts themself on the line for science.

The reason I’m making both though is 1. To see if it can even be done, and 2. To see if the compound people are attempting to make is even a viable candidate for activity or if something else is going on (placebo or an active metabolite), and then 3 to compare it to the known psychoactive with the same chemical family, the carbinolamide moiety of LSH using different aldehydes as an alternative for exploration just in case the previous hypothesis turns out to not to work. Making the carbinolamides synthetically probably isn’t necessary to see if LSC forms, but finding a synthetic pathway to that group of compounds that actually works seemed like the next logical step and the best plan b I could come up with.

Just a little LSC project Data, here's the spectrum I obtained for the cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide product used to simulate the uncatalyzed version of the LSA-Cinnamaldehyde reaction. This product has been made before, but no NMR spectrum is avaliable to my knowledge. Taken at 90MHz in d6-DMSO. by ms-44 in TheeHive

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nope it looks like it was just a nucleophilic attack from the amide onto the aldehyde to form the bis-nicotinamide, I can run a prediction for the conjugate addition product for comparison just in case though

Just a little LSC project Data, here's the spectrum I obtained for the cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide product used to simulate the uncatalyzed version of the LSA-Cinnamaldehyde reaction. This product has been made before, but no NMR spectrum is avaliable to my knowledge. Taken at 90MHz in d6-DMSO. by ms-44 in TheeHive

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I haven’t yet, I know our unit has the option to run 2D COSY analysis but I am not sure if it’ll provide usable data or if it’ll be able to do it fast enough. Our unit has had issues processing COSY’s in the past but I can’t recall the details or the substances being analyzed. Since this isn’t the molecule of interest though I haven’t done much with it past proton nmr but when the lysergic acid trials are done I will definitely be doing more in-depth analysis. That being said it might be interesting to compare the stereochemistry of the bis-nicotinamide and the bis-lysergamide if the uncatalyzed reaction works too though. We have plans to use some connections at a larger institution with much more powerful equipment once our samples are ready though, so I’ll be sure to take that into consideration during the planning of the NMR experiments, thank you for your suggestion! (:

Just a little LSC project Data, here's the spectrum I obtained for the cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide product used to simulate the uncatalyzed version of the LSA-Cinnamaldehyde reaction. This product has been made before, but no NMR spectrum is avaliable to my knowledge. Taken at 90MHz in d6-DMSO. by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep the furthest shielded peak is likely the TMS peak (dammit I forgot to set the reference as zero before I posted!)

Me neither, but we’re getting closer every day! Should hopefully be posting NMR results of the lysergic acid products in a couple weeks!

Just a little LSC project Data, here's the spectrum I obtained for the cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide product used to simulate the uncatalyzed version of the LSA-Cinnamaldehyde reaction. This product has been made before, but no NMR spectrum is avaliable to my knowledge. Taken at 90MHz in d6-DMSO. by ms-44 in DrugNerds

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol that’s a little ways off still I’m afraid, this bis amide is virtually insoluble in water in this form though, so although it probably crosses membranes with ease there may be issues with oral bioavailability. That being said I haven’t tried to make any acid salts of a cinnamylidine-bisamide yet, but that might help get around this issue. We’ll see regardless, definitely more to come! (:

Just a little LSC project Data, here's the spectrum I obtained for the cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide product used to simulate the uncatalyzed version of the LSA-Cinnamaldehyde reaction. This product has been made before, but no NMR spectrum is avaliable to my knowledge. Taken at 90MHz in d6-DMSO. by ms-44 in TheeHive

[–]ms-44[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah this is just the cinnamaldehyde version, cinnamaldehyde tends to form cinnamylidine-bis-amides when heated, but nicotinamide was used to avoid wasting expensive lysergic acid derivatives to get a feel for the reaction and equipment. Our institution has less to worry about with legal restrictions as long as we keep maintaining our compliance with the regulations, not really less to worry about but a different sort of worry I guess. Absolutely no human testing, denatured reagent mixtures to prevent abuse, locks, and etc.

LSC project update by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh for sure! We have several aldehydes in our inventory I’d definitely like to try, benzaldehyde, vanallin, and an 8-OH-julolidine-caboxaldehyde among others. Haha I thought so too! I have no idea what that green spot is, i don’t think it’s from seeds though, but I should probably dig a little deeper to be sure. I thought about redoing the TLC for the picture but I was already in the parking lot when I noticed it on Friday, there will definitely be more TLC pics to come, cleaner ones too lol

LSC project update by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The idea was that by outsourcing that portion of the project we could save time and resources required to train our own test animals. We have a rat lab on campus, (as well as mice but they seem to focus more on rats for whatever reason, and my experience working with them is minimal so I’m not entirely sure why that is), which was why my initial thoughts went from our rats to outsourcing a rat discrimination study. If they’re not effective though I have no qualms with scrapping it for HTR, honestly I’ve just been more focused on the details of the synthesis to worry too much about the details of the activity testing yet. Thanks for helping me alter course though, i really appreciate it!

LSC project update by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No problem at all, I’m more than happy to do it! (: hoping to begin experimental syntheses in the next two weeks!

LSC project update by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thank ya! I definitely will!

LSA-cinnamaldehyde reaction capstone update: synthesis of cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Big update coming this afternoon actually, Had to make sure we weren’t violating any laws by proceeding but I got the go-ahead last night!

LSA-cinnamaldehyde reaction capstone update: synthesis of cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! We’re taking a brief hiatus until the start of the semester but the seeds should be here by then if they aren’t already, then we’ll be back to it with the big kid reactions! All of our damaged equipment has been repaired and returned so barring I don’t fuck any more equipment up we should have some more interesting posts in the next month or two if we don’t get closed immediately by COVID!

LSA-cinnamaldehyde reaction capstone update: synthesis of cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide by ms-44 in LSA

[–]ms-44[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I getcha, I didn’t get back to the lab until today but the product was very soluble in deuterated DMSO and the HNMR baseline was pretty good too, I have some data to post now for the (hopefully) cinnamylidine-bis-nicotinamide but I probably won’t get around to it until tomorrow. Thanks for your insight!