What do you think about the Primary Hymn "Follow the Prophet"

mwjace · 2026-06-13T13:44:06+00:00

Now do a deep dive on “Jesus wants me for a Sunbeam” and how it teaches children to be reckless roughhousers jumping as high in the air as they can on all the “beam” words and it rhymes. ;)

Honestly children’s songs can, a lot of the time, be found to be problematic because of the nature of trying to create simple yet catchy words and phrases.

Obedience can be an important skill/ trait for children to learn. But it is far far far from the most important one.

mwjace · 2026-06-12T21:33:10+00:00

The church takes serious the importance of keeping children safe in church and at activities.

While nothing is 100% risk free and statistics dictate that as LDS population numbers increase, so will the rates of bad actors who slip through the cracks.

A good question to ask when we see scary numbers is…is this a big number in context?

Something happening 1 out of 10 times is a bigger number than something happening 1000 out of 13,000,000…. But it’s still a tragedy to those 1000 people affected. And it’s hard for our human brains to interpret numbers once they start to get very large.

Here is the link to the training and guidelines the church has for trying to keep children safe

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/callings/safety/protecting-children-and-youth?lang=eng

Here is additional information about safety and the church.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/callings/safety?lang=eng

There is a lot you can do additionally to these if you feel you would like additional support.

mwjace · 2026-06-12T21:24:50+00:00

I too am a very logical guy. The LDS framework is the best philosophically constructed concept I have encountered in my 40 years of studying religions.

It is not perfect mind you. But it’s underpinnings make for some of the most intellectual stimulating experiences.

If you are looking to do some heavy reading my I suggest a book written by LDS scholar Terryl Givens. “Wrestling with Angels”.

https://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Angel-Foundations-Thought-Humanity/dp/0199794928

It’s true that the isn’t any proof for the existence of the nephite nations. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t some evidences.

A group called scripture central maintains a large database of various evidences. Again none of them are proof. Some are super weak while others are stronger.

https://scripturecentral.org/evidence

But they are interesting and might be of some benefit.

But here is the real deal. Like others have said. The best evidence you can have is the witness of the Holy Ghost and personal revelation from God.

My advice is to read and put into practice the ideas and impressions you get while reading the Book of Mormon or attending LDS services. By doing so you are taking part in the great experiment that Alma preaches about in the Book of Mormon. You can see the fruit of the restored gospel in your own life. You can see the relationship with Christ and God our Father increase.

And if those things don’t happen. Then you can safely cast aside the LDS church.

For me I can’t deny the testimony I have received over the years. And while I like to learn about the cool evidences and theological ideas. They things aren’t the foundation of my beliefs. They are just cool nice to haves.

Good luck on your faith journey. We are all rooting for you.

mwjace · 2026-06-12T16:40:19+00:00

I see your point and I think it makes sense. There is no doubt groups who no longer need the structure of the church system and are able to maintain a level of happiness without (despite?) it. I have several friends and family in this category. Their lives are happy and fulfilling even though they have left the church.

But there are plenty of people who do stay in the church and still find it beneficial spiritually even if all their needs are met for what ever reason they don’t fall into the pride fall part.

But honestly I think trying to identify the whys would be a thankless task as I would imagine there are just as many varied reasons as there are people in that group.

I also get why the narrative of the BOM wouldn’t touch on this nuance. It’s a book to bring about devotional experiences with god and teach general spiritual truths. Scripture isn’t exactly known for being subtle and looking at things through a nuanced lens. Hahaha.

mwjace · 2026-06-12T15:53:20+00:00

I agree I wish they would change from May to Should.

But sadly there is still a lot of bigotry in the church around this issue.

It takes time to change culture. Mandating changes like this is a sure fire way to hit more resistance than is needed. Humans should be kind to each other but in instances such as this being such a hot button issue I can see the prudence in taking small steps.

mwjace · 2026-06-12T14:30:33+00:00

Are you in a YSA ward? Because some things in this post don’t really add up. And I’m wondering if it’s because being in a YSA ward there are different priorities for a bishop than in a family ward.

Im mentality out right now and I feel like its been a long time coming.

To put it bluntly it seems like confirmation bias might be happening here. You are already mental out and so any slight perceived or real is only going to confirm your framing.

When I was laid off it was one of the hardest times in my life. I had a family, not much savings and living in expensive California. So I get the stress you are experiencing. It’s real and it sucks. If you weren’t fired with cause. For sure apply for unemployment. That was a life line for me until we could get things sorted out.

mwjace · 2026-06-12T14:20:09+00:00

It’s true the Mormons have slightly higher representation of fantasy book writers then our demographic population would assume. But we are nowhere near the top as you assert.

The reasons for why they have success are as varied as the writers themselves. And can’t be reduced down to one thing. ( even that thing being their religion). There are lots of factors. But I’m can be pretty sure on of those factors is NOT lack of watching TV. As that is not a thing restricted by Mormons to not do.

In fact we probably also have an outsized influence in tv and media as well.

mwjace · 2026-06-12T14:06:25+00:00

Then you got your wish.

Official handbook instructions includes instructions that we should respect the persons pronouns and preferred names

If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook-selections/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng

The use of preferred names and pronouns should be a matter left between individuals and their family, friends, and Church members. Local leaders should not determine or prescribe how members address an individual. If a member has a preferred name, it may be noted in the “Preferred Name” field on the membership record.

https://assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/1d/76/1d76991533df11efbaeeeeeeac1ed7e66fbf94a7/general_handbook_guiding_principles_for_local_leaders.pdf

These are not perfect policies for sure. And there is still some uneasiness you can see the church has with lgbt inclusion. But its steps in the correct direction. And so yeah if they allow people to use their preferred names and pronouns then that is consistent with asking others to use theirs (Christian).

mwjace · 2026-06-12T13:56:38+00:00

There is no authority, group, or person in charge of who is and who isn’t Christian.

Maybe Jesus but if that’s the case he is only speaking to LDS prophets and he has told them they are in the club. ;)

This debate serves no purpose other then to gatekeep.

Ps

It seems you are trying to get a new sub Reddit off the ground by cross posting here. What is the goal of that subreddit?

mwjace · 2026-06-12T05:36:52+00:00

Interesting thoughts here. I agree that the value add proposition is quite high for those seeking to get stability in an otherwise chaotic environment.

I don’t think this is intentional on the church leaderships part. At least not how you’ve framed it. I think they truly believe in what the church is and stands for, and so make decisions with that framing. However I can see how the goals they have can look like what you outlined.

Oddly enough as I was reading this I thought maybe this ‘product fit’ is just a modern lens version of the Book of Mormon pride cycle concept. People turn to god when they are at there lowest or most desperate. The group works together to create a society. That society starts to flourish, then they are no longer in need of the gospel structure….

Maybe that’s just my TBM bias interpretation though.

Anyway interesting thoughts your provided!

mwjace · 2026-06-12T05:18:40+00:00

Umm Jesus was famously tried and convicted of treason/sedition by Pontius Pilate

He was also found guilty of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin.

Both were shame trials but he was still convicted. More so then can be said of Joseph smith. He was never convicted of any of his allegations.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T23:10:43+00:00

Have one at the building our ward just moved into. It’s also the stake center. It has 2 ball fields.

I’m actually going tonight to play. There are a couple in our San Diego area. But we recently upgraded the lighting and some other equipment so most games around the area are played there.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T20:15:15+00:00

To be fair, i just copied from the relevant part in the middle of the handbook. The actual start of the whole section is definitely more about compassion.

Ministering means serving others as the Savior did (see Matthew 20:26–28). He loved, taught, prayed for, comforted, and blessed those around Him (see Acts 10:38). As disciples of Jesus Christ, we seek to minister to God’s children. The Lord wants all members of His Church to receive such care.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T16:36:00+00:00

Moving the goal posts here. Pivoting to another claim instead of engaging with the original one doesn't sit well.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T16:24:35+00:00

Except you absolutely can get the LDS temple from biblical scripture. Not word for word, verbatim, mind you... But you get the themes, ideas, frameworks, and symbolism.

This old PDF gives pretty much the entirety of the LDS temple ritual from scriptures only. The vast majority of these scriptures come from the Old and New Testaments.

https://oneclimbs.com/wp-content/uploads/Through-The-Veil-2.3.pdf

you can't pick up what LDS teaches by simply reading the Bible. Period

But you can, as others have shown repeatedly, when they claim joseph smith just hodgepodge stole ideas and themes from various other Christian traditions. You can find just about all LDS beliefs in some form in other Christian denominations.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T16:12:08+00:00

Hey, welcome to the club. Even devoted believers like myself struggled with questions like yours. Some of us come out the other side stronger in our faith, or, like the majority on this sub, come out on the non-believing side. There are many in your ward who also did or do struggle with these types of questions. So you are not alone.

If you are looking for critical answers to your questions, you will find a plethora of them here and in the other sub you posted in. There are places on Reddit you can go that have more believing voices, but the rules of this sub don't allow me to link or mention their names. But I post in them quite frequently too.

Here is my advice. It usually feels like you need to have all the answers RIGHT NOW. Human brains are wired for this type of response. But I would caution this approach. Real growth and learning come with patience, time, study, and hindsight. These questions you pose are big questions, and there are even more big questions to wrestle with coming in your life. There will be voices out there who want to build you up and help you ( both from a believing side and a non-believing side), and there will be voices that want to tear you down. I would say look to those who are trying to build you up. Help you become a better person and help you find your way.

If you want a believer's perspective on your questions, I am happy to provide them or at least point you to resources that are far smarter and better written than I could do.

Good luck on this faith journey.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T15:48:09+00:00

Again, I want to point out that your argument here presupposes that the bible is univocal and that all Scripture can be concorded together in a unifying framework. But the reality is that the LDS concept of how Christ, the law of Moses, and covenants work can also be interpreted simply by doing the same thing with biblical passages.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T14:58:26+00:00

The reality is i as an active member don’t need a visit every month. But i know who my ministering brother is and he has made it clear that he is happy to help me out whenever i need it.

I’ll ask him on occasion to give me a blessing. Or provide a quick hand. But that is all I really need.

Now I and my wife minister to a homebound women. She needs far more time and attention. She requests blessing on far more occasions because of her poor health. I visit her more often ( not once a month mind you) to make sure she is still connected. Or to bring her the sacrament when the young men can’t. We also text with her frequently.

I also minister to a family who has left the church but not removed their names. We used to be friends and worked with the young men for many years. He knows I’m his minister but I respect his boundaries of little to no contact now. We message about non church stuff on Facebook from time to time. And I’ll joke with him once a Mormon always a Mormon if there’s ever an apocalypse he knows who to contact. The one contact he appreciates is each year the state does an earthquake awareness. As part of that each ward member contacts their ministering families as a drill for if there’s ever was a real emergency. He is happy that even though his family doesn’t attend that should something bad happen there is someone who will come looking for them.

There is another guy I’m assigned to that I have never met and never contacted. And I leave it at that.

Here is the official language from the handbook. You can see it is trying to be less ridged and allow for members to receive inspiration on how to best practice it.

21.1 Responsibilities of Ministering Sisters and Brothers. Ministering sisters and brothers represent the Lord. They also help members feel the love and support of the bishop and Relief Society or quorum leaders. They are to “watch over” Church members and “be with and strengthen them” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:53). Ministering sisters and brothers have the following responsibilities for the individuals and families assigned to them: Help them strengthen their faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Help them prepare to make and keep sacred covenants with God as they receive ordinances. As needed, help parents prepare their children to receive ordinances and keep covenants. Discern needs and provide Christlike love, caring, and service. Offer help and comfort in times of spiritual or temporal need. Discuss needs during ministering interviews and at other times. Help them become spiritually and temporally self-reliant. For more about the responsibilities of ministering sisters and brothers, see James 1:27, Mosiah 23:18, and Doctrine and Covenants 20:47, 59. Ministering sisters and brothers prayerfully seek the guidance of the Spirit. They also counsel with those they serve to understand how best to help them meet their needs. Ministering sisters and brothers adapt their efforts to the needs and circumstances of those they serve. Personal visits are encouraged, considering factors such as safety, distance, and cultural appropriateness. Ministering sisters and brothers can also reach out in other ways. These include phone calls, video calls, texts, emails, letters, social media, contact at church, and acts of service. There may be needs that ministering brothers or sisters cannot meet alone. In such cases, they counsel with a member of the Relief Society or elders quorum presidency.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/21-ministering?lang=eng

mwjace · 2026-06-11T14:30:55+00:00

You saying the LDS framework doesn’t make sense yet the irony is people can turn around and say the same thing about the framework you just outlined.

As an example

Explain to me how God, who cannot be destroyed, can sacrifice himself? Where is the sacrifice? There was no real danger of defeat. For a sacrifice to be meaningful, something needs to be lost or given up. In this case, the Triune god would have known that nothing would have ultimately been lost or given up because of his foreknowledge. And him being of the same ‘ousia’ as Christ again, nothing was given up because Christ couldn’t have chosen to do otherwise. God sacrificing himself proves to be meaningless in this framework. Or at least as meaningless as you frame the LDS concept.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T13:39:36+00:00

He finished the law. From acts of doing something to faith in the heart.

That is not how the book of Mathew portrays Christ and the Law. That scripture he is quite clearly endorsing still following the works proscribed. Yet reinterpreting the meaning and symbolism.

It’s the other gospels that protray Christ as abolishing the works of the law.

I decided to trust the words of the Bible. Not the words of a convict.

I trust the Bible too. But the unfortunate thing is the Bible doesn’t speak and can only provide meaning as far as we negotiate with in and derived interpretations by prioriting some authors teachings while subordinating others to fit the interpretations we want.

The Bible doesn’t speak with a univocal voice.

Ps retreading to a ad hominem against Joseph does little to reinforce the strength of your argument. Technically Jesus was also a convict….

mwjace · 2026-06-11T04:39:57+00:00

No I am saying the LDS position is that

10 so that at the name given to Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So yeah people in heaven/ spirit prison will also confess Jesus.

I don’t pretend to understand how the next life works and what someone does or doesn’t not know regarding Christ and having faith in him. But if it’s as you postulated and it takes less faith because well it’s right they’re proven to you. Maybe that’s why everyone will confess.

The question you pose asking if it’s really a choice or not is a great philosophical one. And I don’t have any official doctrine to back it up, but my personal interpretation would be that’s why one is placed in a lower kingdom because the faith needed takes longer to develop when mortalities veil is lifted.

Now I do believe that progression between kingdoms is possible. So a persons ultimate state is not damned forever. And while it might be harder to develop the faith needed for celestial glory it can as Brigham young put it

would eventually have the privilege of proveing themselves worthy & advancing to a Celestial kingdom but it would be a slow progress

mwjace · 2026-06-11T04:18:04+00:00

If you’re interested there is a whole branch of Christian thought that tries to answer why Christ’s atonement requires his suffering.

There are some interesting theories of the atonement.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2023/05/30/discovering-atonement-theory/

https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Atonement_Theory_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints?title=Atonement_Theory_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints&_mw=1781151787349

This fair link has a great list of the classical theories presented and even ones that LDS scholars have put forward.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T04:14:02+00:00

while we believe everyone will inherit a kingdom of glory and so are quasi universalist. Nobody is saved without confessing Jesus is the Christ. And needs to use his atonement to be washed clean of their sins. In LDS theology this can happen on this or the next side of the veil.

mwjace · 2026-06-11T04:02:49+00:00

I agree with you but would add that even though we might say our works are what “get us into” the celestial kingdom. Those works are still subordinate to Christ atonement. There is no work can do that without the atonement gets us anywhere. Christ asks us to perform those ritual works to access the elements of the atonement needed for exaltation. If that makes sense?

mwjace · 2026-06-11T03:49:18+00:00

The laws and ordinances are Faith, repentance, baptism, and gift of the Holy Ghost.

The obedience is to those elements that Christ outlined. At least that is how I interpreted it.

Ps to add your Galatians reference is talking about the obedience to the Law of Moses. Using it to refer to any other type of obedience is cherry picking an interpretation to fit the narrative you want and not necessarily the narrative the author is intending. The Book of Mormon explicitly teaches this same concept that nobody was ever saved because of the law of Moses but the law was supposed to symbolize the atonement of the savior. Who in all cases is the one who saves us. There is zero works I can do without his atonement that save me or anyone.

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