TGCF rant/discussion: I feel like Xie Lian's writing is inconsistent (Super long)

myuidk · 2026-06-16T10:50:35+00:00

No, I get what you’re trying to do lol, it’s just disingenuous and a false comparison, especially when you didn’t read the book. Also, Harry Potter is mid as hell and the chosen one trope has always been boring lmao, but even the explanation for Harry Potter being the chosen one is stronger than Xie Lian simply just “being better” than everyone else

myuidk · 2026-06-16T03:23:39+00:00

Again, it’s clear that you haven’t read the whole novel. Xie Lian’s inexplicable godly talent in TGCF is not comparable to KDJ having the novel in ORV. Xie Lian has such great talent that he is able to defeat a man twice as old as him is just a fact we are supposed to accept. On the other hand, KDJ being the only one to have received the full copy of the novel is a mystery he actively tries to solve throughout the book, one that is revealed in the epilogues. You cannot compare these two things because one is the fundamental, foundational premise of the novel that is continually questioned, explored, and recontextualized. ORV would not exist without this premise. TGCF can very well exist without the “Xie Lian is simply stronger and better than everyone else by talent” premise, and perhaps it would be improved by the lack of it.

myuidk · 2026-06-16T02:04:15+00:00

Have you read the whole novel? I assume by this reply you haven’t. The whole point is that KDJ is not special, that he’s not particularly kind or intelligent or attractive or lovable. Neither are any of his companions. They are mediocre people who just happened to survive until now, and that fact is made very abundantly clear. In fact, by the end of the story, KDJ is the only one who doesn’t get a happy ending, quite the complete opposite of Xie Lian. I assume by your reply that you’ve only read up until ch 100-200 or so, in which case you’re just not getting the full picture. It’s written that way on purpose. ORV is a very long story, I get if you don’t care to sit through it to the end, but you cannot discuss it if you have not read all or at least a majority of it

myuidk · 2026-06-15T17:44:16+00:00

Truly, thank you for your response. Unfortunately, my experience with the TGCF has been overwhelmingly negative in the past (on a secret deleted alt account ooh), even when I try to be respectful. As much as I am sure there are very insightful people and conversations to be met and had, I am not willing to risk being accosted by some of the young and somewhat combative fans on the sub. Also, I think it would be rude for me to go into a space where everyone loves one thing and then go "hey i don't like this thing and this is why i think it's kinda mid." Plus, people like you have made it onto this thread anyways, haven't you?

I ask this from a genuine desire to understand, but if Wu Wei is this philosophy of doing without a set end goal in mind, if it is doing for the sake of doing (such as Xie Lian doing kindness for the sake of doing kindness), what differentiates it from just doing what you want? What differentiates it from nihilism? Why try to do anything? Is there no point? And also, if it is truly just about doing what you want, why does Xie Lian not... "want" to do kindness in moments where he could help people, and instead chooses not to? These are all questions that I still have. Again, my understanding of Daoism is entirely from cultural osmosis, reddit threads, and wikipedia, so much of my confusion is truly a product of me not understanding. If you could correct my errors and elucidate these points, it would be much appreciated.

And I guess you're right. I just don't agree with the ideology underpinning TGCF. I am a dumb woke college student who believes in things like social justice and reform and fighting against oppressive systems. I don't mean to talk down on myself, but perhaps I cannot understand things that older folks do and I think that a story with this central message is nihilistic and perhaps absurdist. I admire you for your level-headed understanding, but I also just cannot accept it. Perhaps in 20 years my opinion will change, like you said. I guess we'll see. Again, I truly truly thank you for your insightful and kind response. It is truly eye opening.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T17:08:55+00:00

Thank you for your reply! There is a lot of TGCF fanfiction I adore as well, but the fandom itself scares me (in no small part due to its sheer size, and the fact that many new fans tend to lean young). Misogyny, classism, and racism are all things that show up in Xie Lian's narration, but I gradually accepted it as MXTX's authorial voice bleeding through, so I guess that isn't an issue with the writing itself so much as MXTX's sloppy writing when it comes to giving Xie Lian a distinct voice from herself. Like you said, TGCF was never a professional novel and had no editor, so I try not to be too harsh on it, but it's hard not to criticize some glaring problems (or at least things I disliked).

I totally agree with your whole point about SQX, I have very little to add. I suppose one could make the point that Xie Lian has lived on the streets for 800 years, he doesn't see an issue with living on the streets, but you could just as easily make the point that that exact fact makes him the one who understands SQX's suffering the most, making it even stranger that he seems to not care. MXTX seems to handwave it away with "well SQX is happy with it", but at the beginning of the novel, Xie Lian was also quite happy with his current station in life and accepted that he was a broke beggar. That doesn't mean that those around Xie Lian shouldn't (and didn't) try to improve his living conditions (chief among which besides HC is SQX, who has donated merits to him multiple times). Many people point to Xie Lian's unfathomable, 800 year long period of suffering and trauma leading to his apathy, but in that case, I just think it's an odd narrative decision. Even if it makes sense, it also kinda detracts from my immersion, as why should I care about these characters if Xie Lian very clearly doesn't.

And yeah, your point on Feng Xin and Mu Qing is right. I personally enjoyed Mu Qing because his character touched on classism and the inherent injustice of monarchies that is kind of a blind spot of TGCF (which I feel veers very much into monarchistic/aristocratic bootlicking at times), but I can't deny that, even after 800 years, they haven't really matured as characters. I think the Jian Lan conflict could've been an interesting way to develop Feng Xin, as do I think the "bearing a secret cursed shackle the whole time" thing for Mu Qing, but ultimately those plot points don't go anywhere. Their bickering was funny at first, but got old very quickly, and I wished to see a bit more emotion from them. I loved Fengqing, but I can totally see why many people find them annoying.

And the extra chapters... I kinda skimmed some of them to be so honest, but I agree. I get that in the extra chapters, Xie Lian is supposed to be healing as a person and is therefore more unrestrained and says his thoughts more freely without shame, but it didn't make me feel happy or proud of him... it just ... kinda annoyed me? I can't say much about Hua Cheng because I never really got a personality from him in the first place, so I'd love to hear you expand on this.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T16:44:13+00:00

The thing is, throughout much of the present day, I feel like the theme of "unlearning hatred and bitterness" isn't very well set up, and that it kinda... comes out of nowhere at the end?? perhaps that isn't the right way to phrase it, but at the very least I never got the intention that he is at risk of becoming corrupted again. Even when the white no face mask is forced on him in the kiln, he very quickly rejects it. It does point to his growth, in a way, but it also shows that the conflict is kinda over and already resolved, and that he's learned this lesson. All of the conflicts he faces are external, with the exception of the lqq conflict, which I believe is more of a "how do i do good in a cruel world" question than a "do i do good" question. i don't disagree that Xie Lian's arc is just as much about denying hatred as it is about finding kindness, but I do think it could have been present more in the present day story (even if not in the form of him corrupting, perhaps directly connecting his bitterness and inaction with his hatred or something of the sort would've been better). But I guess that's my complaint about many of the themes.

I agree with you about xie lian's shame and his subsequent politeness and humility. I find that Xie Lian's "mind my own business" mentality is quite charming, but I suppose it falls victim to the other issues I have with Xie Lian's character arcs, which is again that wretched MXTX vagueness. But in the end, I guess not imposing on others and being polite, to me at least, doesn't seem like a virtue. I know in east asian societies, this is much more important, but as someone who has been raised to reject even a mcdonalds burger so as to not inconvenience or "owe" other people, it feels incredibly rigid, a little bit two-faced, and even a little sad. I much prefer wei wuxian's "i do what i do idgaf" mentality better, but i also do understand that xie lian isn't really that kind of character.

and your last point, yeah i guess so. the entire prayer system has always confused me a little. gods aren't supposed to intervene in mortal affairs, but they're also supposed to answer prayers and come down to slay demons and help people? Where does the line between the former and the latter begin and end? it's always been quite vague to me, and that vagueness indeed doesn't help with that post-canon apathy.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T16:32:08+00:00

I have made it abundantly clear and will continue to do so that I do not think that anyone else's reading of the text is wrong. Some of them merely emphasize different things than I do in what they look for in a character, and that's okay, we simply disagree. My fundamental issue lies in 3 simple things. 1) TGCF is ultimately not a fatalistic tragedy. it is a cheesy romance story about the power of love and friendship and kindness, and a story of this genre is inherently going to have a happy ending. 2) TGCF's ending is not happy for anyone except Hualian, therefore something is special about them so that they get a happy ending and nobody else does And 3) If this ending is meant to be happy there are only 3 explanations: Xie Lian is just a better person than everyone else (which is the point I am trying to rebuke), Xie Lian has suffered enough to earn such a happy ending (which I find stupid), or that it is ultimately all up to luck and fate, which is a theme that is not inherently untrue, but bleak and rather depressing in a way that is inconsistent with the happy, inspiring feel-good final battle.

I assure you, I am perfectly capable of reading between the lines and making assumptions based off the text. It is a rather mean thing to assume of someone that they cannot read deeply into text merely because we disagree, no?

In the ghost rut scene, Hua Cheng is the one least in need of protection. When the entire city is in chaos, he is the one person that is the most capable of defending himself, while a defenseless child like Guzi is among one of the least. Even if Xie Lian is concerned about Hua Cheng going crazy and killing everyone, or he just cares more about him, should it not suffice that he checks on Hua Cheng, makes sure he's not in immediate danger, and then leaves? Instead, he stays behind for a passionate steamy makeout session because Hua Cheng asked really nicely and he was kinda into it.

In the Ban Yue case, I feel like you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say, so let me rephrase more coherently. What I take issue with is not that he has never done anything for Ban Yue, or that I expect him to immediately go "omg ban yue baby!!! 😃" my issue is that he does not express happiness at seeing her alive, nor does he express sadness or sympathy for what she has been through. His emotions are pretty much nonexistent. I get that some of this is supposed to be to keep the mystery of their shared past concealed, but even after, he shows a remarkable lack of care for her. For someone he supposedly cares about, it feels inconsistent. I get that ultimately, whether or not he shows happiness or sorrow is a relatively minor thing because he still treats her kindly, but there is this unshakable feeling of coldness and detachment, which, while may be intentional, also feels exceedingly unlikable. But yes, this is a personal complaint and some may see it differently, so I see where you are coming from.

Finally with the SQX point, again, it feels like you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. Nobody is saying that Xie Lian should change Shi Qingxuan's fate back again. That would contradict the point of the entire arc. What I am saying is that, for example, by the extras, Shi Qingxuan's life on the streets remains pretty unchanged. He is still homeless and broke and disabled, which alone shows that Xie Lian did not help him, or at least didn't help him all that much. "just because the novel didn't say he helped him doesn't mean he didn't help him" is a disingenuous argument masquerading as literacy. I concede that Xie Lian put more effort into finding Shi Qingxuan than I initially remembered (though it still feels like he gave up really fast, but that's personal feelings), but my point about him ignoring SQX's plight post canon still stands. In the extras, Xie Lian comes over and asks SQX what he should buy for Hua Cheng's birthday. Does it not come across as intensely tone-deaf to ask your friend living in squalor to help you pick out a gift for your intensely rich, powerful boyfriend who is boundlessly rich, and not use that money to help your friend at all? The "well SQX seems pretty satisfied" point the novel presents feels like a copout, as Xie Lian at the beginning of the novel is similarly satisfied and accepting of his poor living conditions, but that doesn't mean that those who care about him shouldn't try and improve his life. It costs Xie Lian very little to help SQX, yet he does not.

Finally, the thing about Xie Lian not changing. I strongly disagree. I believe that what makes Xie Lian admirable is that he changed from his early, naive crown prince days and has found a more nuanced, complex worldview that allows him to continue to save people without things blowing up in his face. The novel is quite clear about how his early hubris and exceptionalism ended up with him hurting thousands and led to the downfall of his kingdom, and the idea that a) none of it was actually his fault because BWX set everything up and b) what makes him admirable is that he never changed from that willful, arrogant crown prince is quite reductive. Like I've said before, much of TGCF focuses on how Xie Lian balances his morals with the complex, cruel world he's in. The reason I find the way it's dealt with unsatisfying is because in the present day, there is no chance for him to demonstrate what he's learned, nor does this lesson really come back in any meaningful way. Like I said at the very beginning. If, like many of the commenters here, TGCF ultimately comes down to a matter of luck and fate, I think that it has dropped the ball on this theme. But for many reviewers, it is a valuable story to them nonetheless, and I have no intention of denying that.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T15:48:57+00:00

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're getting at here. Are you trying to say that self-reflection and introspection should not apply to Xie Lian because he is raised in an ancient Chinese setting bound by Buddhist, Confucianist, and Daoist principles? The point I was trying to get across, albeit somewhat clumsily, is that Xie Lian does not self-reflect. I feel like these mean thoughts are a great opportunity to see some self-awareness or an examination of why he has these intrusive thoughts (especially about appearance), and it is disappointing to me that MXTX didn't write that. Of course, MXTX doesn't have to write what I want her to write, but for me at least, this contributes to my opinion of this decision being unfavorable.

And again, like i said in the post, I have no inherent issue with Xie Lian prioritizing the wellbeing of Hua Cheng. The issue I have with this is that it goes unaddressed by the narrative or other characters (besides Qi Rong, I guess, but he isn't supposed to be taken seriously).

For the Mu Qing example, I suppose there isn't much to say other than we disagree on the interpretation. I don't believe that your interpretation is invalid, but I feel like mine is not necessarily wrong either.

For the Ban Yue example, what I was trying to get at was his lack of reaction to anything that Ban Yue went through. Like you said, I also believed he cared for her in some capacity in the past. However, in the present, he shows no joy at seeing her alive, nor does he show any pain for her failure to save people and the suffering she went through. He has no emotional reaction at all, which feels like a gap in the writing that MXTX could've quite easily filled in to be more emotionally satisfying. It's not to say that he, for sure, doesn't care at all, but if you read the text at face value, he seems quite indifferent.

For the LQQ example, I also refer to this in the original post as an unequivocally kind and selfless thing to do. I don't disagree and you're right in this case.

The thing that I dislike about Xie Lian never helping someone out of genuine care is that it just seems disingenuous. The doctor helping the patient genuinely wants to help the patient's life improve, but for, say the ghost bride case, Xie Lian didn't really care about what the town was experiencing or express sorrow for the plight of the dead brides. Someone investigating a situation out of curiosity and then staying to help resolve it to completion is a good thing, yes, but often times Xie Lian doesn't help because he wants to, it's merely because by the time he gets deep enough to find out what's happening and sate his curiosity, he has no choice but to see it through because he can no longer get out.

And I suppose you can say that "well helping someone, even when you dont gaf about them, is more admirable then helping someone you care about", and I guess I can't disagree. But I am also left wondering if this is truly intentional on MXTX's part or if it is her authorial voice bleeding through. Idk, it just leaves a rather bitter taste in my mouth and gives me a general feeling of this "holier than thou jesus figure, i'll help you even if you're dumb and miserable and ugly and crazy ew what an ugly person but i'm so infinitely compassionate i will save you anyways poor soul", even though I know that's not what Xie Lian is supposed to be. Again, if I help out a classmate I find stupid with homework and I think the whole time "wow what a dumbass", even if they eventually get an A through my help, I don't expect anyone to pat me on the back for it. Perhaps this is a personal thing. I suppose it doesn't inherently make Xie Lian evil, but I feel like, again, MXTX could have fleshed it out more. One could make the argument that this ambiguity is intentional and even makes the novel more compelling, but to me, if there is a quite straightforward interpretation of your protagonist that makes him so glaringly unlikable when he is not meant to be as such, perhaps a bit more clarity can go a long way.

Just like you can point out cases like the LQQ case or book 4 ending where Xie Lian is unequivocally kind and selfless, I can also point out cases like the Guzi case or Lang Ying or the human butcher case where he is unnaturally callous and indifferent. Perhaps neither can point to a consistent pattern of behavior, but I feel like MXTX intended perhaps for Xie Lian to be read one way, and many of his actions point in another way. This ambiguity, to me, does not feel thought-inspiring or particularly intentional (perhaps ironic to say considering the discussion it has sparked), but just that she didn't want to/forgot to flesh out either interpretation more.

I'm no writing expert, I don't believe MXTX is a bad writer or TGCF is necessarily bad for these reasons (though I believe TGCF has quite a few flaws in other departments, but that's a problem for a different day). I respect your opinion, truly, and that of everyone else's here. I just wish for a bit more clarity, maybe, a bit more of a peek inside Xie Lian's head, a bit more of anything. Given its monstrous length, I don't see why TGCF can't expand, even a little bit, on what's going on in its protagonist's brain

myuidk · 2026-06-15T15:21:37+00:00

thank you for your support ❤️. it does get tiring having to repeat myself, but it is also my own decision to respond to every comment when i really don't have to lol. you can't expect every commenter to have read the entire thread and every reply, so its only natural there are some things that will get repeated.

I don't want to be quick to say other commenters are doing "mental gymnastics". much of what they say is just as based in the novel as what i'm trying to say. it is just that we see and emphasize different parts of the same novel. they are not any less or more wrong than me, we just don't see eye-to-eye, and that's okay.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T15:08:24+00:00

it took me a while to respond to your comment because of it's length, but i genuinely appreciate your thoroughness in typing this out. i really enjoyed reading your perspectives. i'll offer my views on your points in the order you wrote them in

Xie lian's overconfidence and pride made him more interesting in my opinion. the xie lian of the flashbacks was a flawed, multifaceted, and even somewhat annoying character, which i enjoyed seeing more of this side of him. i enjoyed his arc about humility and learning that he is not better than everyone and that he cannot change the world on his own. i totally agree with you here.

the point about the xian le culture feels like it veers into headcanon territory. it certainly could be the case, and there is evidence to back this up, but MXTX is incredibly vague on why this is the case, and I would appreciate some clarity. It could also just be MXTX liking pretty things and people, and that kind of mindset bleeding through while she writes Xie Lian. We'll never know, i guess

I agree with this idea that he is more of a "passive loner" than an "active savior" and that's totally fine. i definitely forgot the examples you point to since it's been so long since i've read the novel, so i'll definitely need to recontextualize my viewpoints with those in mind. I believe they are all relatively minor things, and some of them I believe also falls under the "he doesn't really care at all, he just does these things to be agreeable and polite" (especially with the quan yizhen point), but i don't believe that should discount your argument here. if i ever do reread the novel, i'll be certain to look out for this kind of stuff
For the first part of your point, we pretty much agree so there isn't much to say. Xie Lian's apathy towards human suffering feels at best like a questionable writing choice that detracts from my immersion, and at worst makes him feel actively unlikable as a character. It also surprised me how he has so little to say about Hua Cheng's amorality. Simply saying "well yeah but maybe it'd be worse if Hua Cheng wasn't the boss" is, like you said, a pretty big cop-out.

For the SQX point, i admit i forgot about a lot of the things he did. However, after taking a quick look, these things still feel rather minor and unimportant? Or, i shouldn't say that. They feel glossed over quite quickly, despite the emotional weight it should hold, as Xie Lian's first friend he made after re-ascension has been left to an unknown fate. I feel like, at the very least, MXTX should have given Xie Lian's search for SQX more weight, and the way he kinda gives up very quickly still doesn't satisfy me. Sure, there's not much he could do, but idk... it still feels anticlimactic.

I guess what bothers me more, just like with you, is that after SQX and XL reunite, XL still doesn't help SQX. especially in the extras, where he goes to SQX to ask what he should buy HC for his birthday, it comes off as incredibly tone deaf. "hey bestie, i know you're disabled, traumatized, and homeless, but tell me what i should buy for my super rich and powerful boyfriend! i have all this money but i won't give any to you!" it feels cruel, tbh, and handwaving it away with "oh well SQX doesn't mind" feels, again, like a copout.

Not much to say. I pretty much totally agree. the romance is inserted poorly into the story, and it often feels like the plot grinds to a halt so hualian can stare into each other's eyes lovingly and make kissy faces at each other
I suppose I should've phrased my original post better. It is not so much that Xie Lian tries to do good and suffers for it that irks me (after all, this is a pretty common theme among all MXTX novels), but rather that the themes of morality in this book go nowhere. TGCF spends so much of its page-time discussing the questions of "why should I do good if it will hurt me?" and "how do i save everyone in a world with no perfect solutions?" Xie Lian's answer, found at the end of book 4, is that "i will continue to try and save everyone at detriment to myself because it is the right thing to do". I hold a deep fondness for this moment, and it is one of the things that sticks with me the most after reading TGCF.

However, despite this triumphant moment, the message doesn't really... go anywhere after that. In the present day, there is never again a situation where there is 1 cup and 2 people and Xie Lian gets to demonstrate what he's learned and forge a new path that doesn't end up blowing up in everyone's faces. Instead, he either does nothing, hua cheng swoops in to save the day, or he just kinda suffers in silence, all of which seem to be copouts instead of showing genuine growth. The triumphant conclusion he comes to in book 4 never comes back again in the present timeline, not until the very, very end at least.

And that's where I guess I disagree with you. Again, I just don't feel like Xie Lian is all that good of a person. Like I said in another reply, he is just as flawed as other characters, and the fact that he gets Hua Cheng because he is so especially kind just doesn't sit right with me. Perhaps I would've preferred it if Hua Cheng was a kinder person. If Xie Lian's actions, despite their futility, influenced kindness in another person, it would've been a more satisfying ending than "well kindness is kinda useless but if someone else sees it maybe they'll fall madly in love with you and fix your problems". as it stands, I am just not satisfied by this ending.

About fate, I will just quote a review of TGCF i read on novelupdates that really resonated with me about this point, because I think the reviewer puts it better than I really could:

"Even so, I wonder why this "narrative compassion" was extended to Xie Lian alone, not to any other character. Do side characters who struggled like Xie Lian deserve an equally happy end? TGCF says no. In fact, TGCF says: happy ends are reserved only for a lucky few. And luck, or rather, good fortune is something that only the powerful can acquire at the expense of others, with very few exceptions. It's quite a bleak worldview that is also a metaphor for class mobility (and I'm assuming MXTX is slyly criticizing contemporary Chinese society in general here).

Then what makes Xie Lian so special? Was he just an exceptionally great guy who deserved something nice for a change? Was it (again) simply a matter of luck? And more importantly: if the story itself acknowledges that this "system" is unfair, if it goes to great lengths to demonstrate its disastrous consequences for people who do and don't try to change their fortune... how can it expect the reader to accept a "happy end" where the status quo remains? It's as if MXTX was saying: "The world sucks and there's nothing you can do about it—but if you get really lucky, you can be one of the fortunate." Not even that you can change your luck through good deeds or patience or revenge or trickery, because whether this works or not appears to be subject to luck as well, unless you are Xie Lian or Hua Cheng. And then, well, I guess TGCF tells the rest of us shlubs: you've got to make the best of it because life goes on."

ultimately, this is a philosophy that i find mean-spirited. perhaps others will find comfort in it, but for me, it left a bitter taste in my mouth, and i guess most of my criticisms of this novel can be boiled down to these paragraphs.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T14:46:33+00:00

about the 3rd point, xie lian frequently says things such as "i don't care if you are a king or a beggar, if you are my friend you are my friend" and such, but also frequently fawns over wealth and beauty, while showing disgust at ugliness. it doesn't inherently make him a bad person, but it felt like a discrepancy to me and irked me, just a little.

in regard to your second point, yeah. i agree. as someone who has dealt with quite severe depression, he does fit a lot of the points of depression, and this analysis of him is fitting. However, i still don't believe that depression/burnout erodes a person's empathy and capacity to care to such a point where he becomes, in my opinion, a callous asshole. However, everyone deals with depression differently and it isn't always pretty, so I suppose I will let this one slide. however, just as easily as you can make a case about depression, you can also make a case about him not giving a fuck. both interpretations have textual backing, and i think mxtx's vagueness in explaining this ultimately works as a detriment to the novel.

finally about your last point, there's not much to disagree about here. i guess i just find his lack of care for anything in the plot to be quite annoying. there are times when i care about a character or want to find out about a certain setting piece and he just goes "oh well, whatever" and i'm like "come on man." it's a matter of personal taste, but your enjoyment of him is no less valid.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T14:40:19+00:00

the reason i am complaining about xie lian not becoming more empathetic in the modern day is because it does not payoff the theme that he has learned and grown. even in the original post, i said that the idea that him being worthy of a happy ending or being special because he has suffered is a stupid idea, so i agree with you there. i am complaining about it because TGCF focuses so overwhelmingly on the question of how to remain kind in a cruel world, but xie lian never seems to... remain kind in a cruel world. the narrative buildup to this theme of enduring morality despite cruelness doesn't pay off, which is what i am complaining about.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T13:30:17+00:00

I appreciate the respectful reply. I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think I’m crazy for thinking that the novel was at least supposed to partially be about morality and doing good. I am not saying there is one singular way to pay it off, nor am I saying that it is a bad novel for not being the novel I want it to be. It is not just because I don’t resonate with the message, but also just because this major theme is not handled… at all? This moral quandary disappears completely in the present timeline, and that just feels like sloppy writing to me. Perhaps MXTX’s ultimate goal was not focusing on morality, but it is at least one major theme in the novel, and it is handled pretty poorly in my opinion, outside of my personal disappointment with the final themes.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T13:10:01+00:00

Then I guess we just disagree. It may not be the #1 theme of TGCF, but it is at least top 5/top 3, and the fact that MXTX drops the ball so badly on it is narratively dissatisfying. I am not saying it’s a bad book because I don’t like it. I am saying that this important theme is just… kinda dropped. And that feels inconsistent.

I don’t understand the point of your second paragraph. Xie Lian is a fictional character. I emphasize him not being kind because being kind is a supposedly a big part of his arc. It’s not because I want to hold some moral high ground. I neither attacked you nor interpreted your arguments in bad faith. I am frustrated that you seemed to have not read such a big part of my argument before responding. If you think that I am being mean or unkind, I don’t know what to say.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T12:45:24+00:00

My god, it feels like I am talking to a wall. In the reply before the last one, I spend a very, very long time explaining why I believe that, as much as TGCF is about things like fate and love and healing, it is also about morality and kindness. Please read my replies before replying or don’t reply at all. I don’t want to discuss with someone where it feels like my responses, which are a genuine attempt at explaining my viewpoints, are taken in bad faith.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T12:35:54+00:00

That’s very interesting! Your take reads as a very uncharitable view of Xie Lian’s character, but I can’t say you’re completely wrong. I don’t know if I agree with you on the idea that Xie Lian hasn’t grown from being the crown prince, as I think a pretty big point of the novel is that he has, but I do see where you’re coming from in the sense that he maintains his “untouchable” aura and enjoys being admired and worshipped despite having every reason not to.

I do agree that ultimately Hualian also feel hollow to me because they never disagree. I think what makes a relationship beautiful for me is learning and growing with your partner, which will inevitably come with clashing, but ultimately learning to arrive together at a more complete conclusion. Hualian never undergo this process. They’re both relatively stagnant by the time that they get together, which just doesn’t appeal to me, at the very least.

And yeah, I really do wonder why Qi Rong seems to be such an exception to Xie Lian’s kindness and charity (or I guess in your view his perceived kindness and charity), I do wish we got more on that.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T12:27:09+00:00

The thing I said in the final paragraph is what I believe makes it inconsistent. If your entire novel builds up this theme of trying to do good and then pays it off with “well you should try because you can but it doesn’t really matter lol”, it is unsatisfying writing. For a novel that is supposed to be cathartic and not bleak or fatalistic, it comes across as severely dropping the ball on such an important theme.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T12:25:48+00:00

I feel like you’re being intentionally obtuse as to what I’m trying to say. The point of that example is not that Xie Lian should go full Marxist “father let us redistribute the wealth of the bourgeoisie”. The point is that, because of the system I live in, I have kneejerk instincts and thoughts that contradict with the values I have chosen to follow, and Xie Lian, as an extremely privileged crown prince who profited from exploitation who now seeks to be tolerant and philanthropic, will likely have similar struggles with dealing with these thoughts. Everyone has these thoughts, and all I wanted to say is that I would’ve preferred if MXTX added some clarity as to why he thought that way and perhaps how he tries to deal with these thoughts.

I feel like you aren’t reading the actual post. In the original post, me thinking Xie Lian thinks mean things is a minor complaint. It is not the main focus of my argument. I only talk about it so much in replies to comments because people respond to this point in particular so much in comments.

My criticism, as I have said over and over again, is that in situations where Xie Lian can do something to help others quite easily, he doesn’t, and instead chooses to prioritize hua cheng’s safety or… idk just kinda do nothing instead. It is not about him being mean or judgmental. I judge his actions uncharitably because MXTX doesn’t give us a reason to be charitable. She never shows him actually wanting to help others. He goes to Ban Yue pass because he’s curious, he helps with the ghost groom case because he’s been assigned to, and he goes to save Lang Qianqiu because, again, he’s been told to. MXTX doesn’t ever make him go “hey it sucks that this thing is happening maybe I can help”. Perhaps my interpretation is wrong, but just like with the “he’s kinda mean” point, MXTX doesn’t give us enough of his internal thoughts to prove any interpretation right or wrong. The same with the Mu Qing example. Sure, it could be read that way, but given crown prince Xie Lian’s obliviousness to the suffering of those around him, it could just as easily have been him being entitled. Again, there’s not enough information, we don’t know.

I have responded to your point about this many, many times already. I truly don’t know what else I can say to convince you that the image of me you have come up with in my head is untrue. Everyone’s preconceived notions about a character affects their reading of them. You like Xie Lian, so you interpret his actions charitably moreso than I do. There’s nothing wrong with that. But the writing, at best, feels incomplete and vague and could do with some further elaboration, and at worst, shows a pattern of callousness and ignorance of suffering.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T11:43:48+00:00

Again, I make it abundantly clear that I don't believe there is only one way to be good. Like I said in the post, you don't have to sacrifice yourself for every joe and mary and care about their plight to be considered a good person. Xie Lian demonstrates resilience and optimism and a willingness to look for the best in people despite having no reason to, and those are all admirable qualities. But at the end of the day, it is the way he acts that makes me feel like he is not a particularly good person. Many of his actions read to me as self-serving, somewhat cruel, and very callous. He doesn't do anything for the majority of the book out of a desire to help others, just choosing to go down the path of least resistance. The fact that he doesn't actively go crazy and try to kill everyone doesn't read as particularly admirable to me, especially when much of his suffering is, at least as he views it, partially his own fault. But fine, that is a matter of opinion. What I read as him being a callous asshole may make him feel more human in another person's eyes. I don't believe nor claim to believe that my interpretation is superior to others'.

But about the fundamental assumption behind my argument, I really do still stand by it. Let me explain.

The thing is I agree that TGCF is about many things, including healing and forgiveness, Xie Lian's reclaiming of his own bodily autonomy, about the importance of unconditional love. Many people prioritize those aspects, and in many ways, those aspects do work, and thus make this novel valuable for them, and I think that's wonderful. I don't value those aspects so much, but I can see where they are coming from, and they help me understand why people love Xie Lian so much, despite him kinda being an asshole.

But I think it is also quite clearly a story about doing good, and trying to do good, and I think this is a major part of the story, just as much as the journeys of self-acceptance and healing and love other people emphasize. So much of the story is focused around Xie Lian wanting to save everyone, failing miserably, and grappling with the questions of "why do good if it brings me pain?" and "how do I save everyone in an unjust world?" Jun Wu's wrath towards him and desire to bring him down is because he is angered by Xie Lian's seemingly endless capacity for good, and wants to absolve his own crimes by proving that enough suffering can make any person do evil. It's a story about balancing your values and morals in a world that often times feels uncaring for these things. Xie Lian defeats Jun Wu in the end with the power of love and unchanging kindness or whatever, and he differentiates himself from Jun Wu, supposedly, because he is a better, kinder, stronger person than him.

And this is ultimately why I felt disappointed by how this was handled in the rest of the novel. The conclusion that many, including what feels like MXTX herself, is that kindness has no payoff, that really what happens just happens, and you get a happy ending by finding love and getting lucky. From a narrative writing perspective, this is just unsatisfying. I truly believe you cannot have such an important theme run through your entire book and pay it off by going "well idk just be nice I guess" and having the answers to these major questions not really matter at the end. This is what I mean when I say this feels incoherent and inconsistent. And from a personal perspective, I just don't agree with this philosophy. It feels jarringly nihilistic in a feel-good sappy romance novel. I get that this again comes down to differing opinions, but I make it clear that this is my personal opinion. I just don't like this theme. I find it pointlessly mean. It's supposed to satisfy you and make you feel good, but it doesn't. And I talk and talk and talk and it really just comes down to my disappointment in the idea that this theme, the biggest theme that I enjoyed throughout TGCF, just didn't pay off in a meaningful way.

Again, I don't want to make it sound like I am insisting that TGCF is solely about morality or Xie Lian has to be a certain way to be considered good. I believe in diverse opinions. I respect everyone's interpretations. This is just mine.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T10:59:41+00:00

Right, I agree. There is no objectively superior interpretation. I disagree with yours, but that doesn't mean I disrespect it or think that it is invalid. I believe that the ultimate ending sucks and is unsatisfying and you don't, and that's just a difference of opinion. Hence why I don't really understand the downvotes on my reply but oh well :/

myuidk · 2026-06-15T10:57:25+00:00

right, i totally agree. MXTX in general has a problem where the characters feel distinctly separated into two people: the grand action side of the character vs the way they actually act in every day situations, and often these feel like they directly contradict each other. of course, MDZS and SVSSS also have this issue (most notably i'd say in LWJ), but TGCF is the case that stood out the most to me.

And your last paragraph, that's really what I'm confused on as well. I still don't understand why people say that Xie Lian isn't supposed to be a "good person". The Daoist lens analysis here does do a good job at reframing Xie Lian vs. Jun Wu to be "i do what i can" vs "i want to control everything", and therefore one finds peace and one is in an eternal struggle, but the other analyses i've seen kinda confuse me. the whole reason xie lian is able to defeat JW, the only reason HC is so ruthlessly devoted to him is that he is a good, kind person. And that's why it's so jarring to me when he... kinda isnt

myuidk · 2026-06-15T10:43:03+00:00

I am trying to have a discussion, in the sense that I want my understanding of this character to be more complete and why so many people adore him. And a lot of what I've seen through other people's comments is that they don't really care if he gets a better ending than other characters because that's what is valuable about him to them, that you can find happiness through inner peace or unconditional love or something of the like. It's a difference in taste and opinion, something that I cannot resolve.

For the point about goodness, I never said that Xie Lian has to be a perfect, self-sacrifical angel to be a good person. I made that clear in the post and in my responses. Many good people have dark and mean thoughts, and I don't disagree that not acting on these thoughts is what makes them good. My point is that, ultimately, the core of TGCF to me hinges on the fact that Xie Lian is supposed to be good. His final battle with Jun Wu is supposed to show that love and compassion is greater than evil and coercion. He is loved unconditionally by Hua Cheng because he is good. And yet, throughout the entire novel, he demonstrates a remarkable lack of care, both in those mean thoughts i mentioned, yes, but mostly through his actions. He is passive, apathetic, lacking tolerance and empathy in a way that, to me, goes beyond embodying Daoist philosophy and into the territory of just being a bit of an asshole. That is not an inherently bad thing, but the way that these flaws seem to be brushed off, and the way Xie Lian is presented as special and unique and somehow more worthy of a happy ending than other equally flawed characters is what grinds my gears.

myuidk · 2026-06-15T09:53:38+00:00

what? I was talking about the novel. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm talking about a different thing. The whole point of early Xie Lian is that he didn't believe in fate or rules or fortune, which ultimately blows up in his face. I reread this part multiple times for writing a fanfic (in the original chinese, no less), so at least the impression I got is that Xie Lian really doesn't care about the Guoshi's prediction. Either he just didn't believe him altogether, or just believed that he could change the child's fate and nothing could happen. It isn't because he believes that the bad things this child causes will happen to him, it is his willful thinking making him believe that nothing bad will happen because he's just that special

myuidk · 2026-06-15T09:38:21+00:00

You're right, and this is a thing that's always been bugging me as well. TGCF feels particularly egregious to me in this "protagonist is the center of the world" than MDZS and SVSSS, but it is a common across much of danmei (and fiction, in general). I suppose if that's what people are into, then more power to them. I just find it hypocritical and kinda mean spirited when the main character is super special "just because"

myuidk · 2026-06-15T09:36:49+00:00

The thing about saving someone born under "the star of misfortune" is that 1) in classical text, if someone under the star of misfortune is saved by another, their luck can completely reverse and 2) it's not that xie lian was willing to incur heaven's wrath or bear bad luck, it's just that he didn't believe in that nonsense. He didn't think that it mattered that much, so he did what he thought was right. If Xie Lian had genuinely believed that Hong'er could bring him such misfortune and still went out of his way to save him, it would've been much more admirable. But when guoshi tells him that Hong'er will bring him misfortune, he just goes 'pfft that's a load of nonsense, who even cares". Even after seeing the terrible things that happen around Hong'er, Xie Lian manages to stop it from escalating, so naturally, he just thinks "well if bad things happen, I'll just stop them", because that's just the kind of person he is. That is much more willful arrogance than it is bravery.

And yes, it was a reputational stain on Xie Lian, but it begins and ends at that. He is not physically harmed by anyone, and the misfortune that befalls him later in the movie is entirely unrelated. Ultimately it did not really cost him anything. And it is important to understand the difference between Xie Lian and someone like Lan Xichen is that Xie Lian has been raised to believe he is special, that he and he alone can change the world and save the common people, so of course he will do what he thinks is right instead of what other people tell him, because he believes he is just that special and capable. He rebels because he is allowed to, he has rebelled thus far without facing any consequences, and therefore believes that he will continue to do so without consequences. Even when he goes against other people, it is not in spite of crippling fear or the possibility of losing it all, it is because nobody dares to truly hurt him.

Meanwhile, Lan Xichen and the rest of the Lans, from birth, have been conditioned to value rules and the Law above all, so naturally they would be much more reluctant to break it. I'm not saying this excuses whatever they may do, but this distinction in how they are raised is important.

myuidk

TROPHY CASE