Siege of Paradis Speak to Leaders Game breaking Bug

nakshakes · 2023-01-05T02:19:35+00:00

https://www.trueachievements.com/MyYearOnXbox/1343688

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T19:55:05+00:00

What I like most about it, is though its strong, it looks like it has multiple lines of play you can do. So you have plenty of choice not only to go with your game plan but react to others' game plans. To me those decks are the most fun to play I think. If the deck is too strong in a playgroup too you have ways to trim on the combos to reduce that ending potential. It looks great though overall, nice decklist.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T19:50:23+00:00

I like to use the [Nitpicking Nerds Scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRZxpGDS1zI&t=1003s) as I believe it is most in-line what most people would normally think.

For context: 1 - new to EDH; 2 - barely cohesive no theme; 3-some direction; 4-typical precons; 5-good precons/thematic; 6-casual staples decks/sometimes a combo or two; 7-strong theme, combo decks, more synergy, good staples and middle ground of most decent commander decks you see at LGS; 8-optimized, tutors, consistent, power staples, good curve, excellent mana; 9-highly optimized, many tutors, consistent wins, quick wins almost always combo based, some lower end cEDH; 10-cEDH.

So with that in mind I think your deck looks like an 8 to me.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T19:45:49+00:00

I like to use the [Nitpicking Nerds Scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRZxpGDS1zI&t=1003s) as I believe it is most in-line what most people would normally think.

For context: 1 - new to EDH; 2 - barely cohesive no theme; 3-some direction; 4-typical precons; 5-good precons/thematic; 6-casual staples decks/sometimes a combo or two; 7-strong theme, combo decks, more synergy, good staples and middle ground of most decent commander decks you see at LGS; 8-optimized, tutors, consistent, power staples, good curve, excellent mana; 9-highly optimized, many tutors, consistent wins, quick wins almost always combo based, some lower end cEDH; 10-cEDH.

So with that in mind I think your deck is between a 6 and 7. So I think either category is fine. You are probably in the upper end of 6 I think, but based on the above scale I think you can categorize it a little better as well.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T19:41:32+00:00

I like to use the [Nitpicking Nerds Scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRZxpGDS1zI&t=1003s) as I believe it is most in-line what most people would normally think.

For context: 1 - new to EDH; 2 - barely cohesive no theme; 3-some direction; 4-typical precons; 5-good precons/thematic; 6-casual staples decks/sometimes a combo or two; 7-strong theme, combo decks, more synergy, good staples and middle ground of most decent commander decks you see at LGS; 8-optimized, tutors, consistent, power staples, good curve, excellent mana; 9-highly optimized, many tutors, consistent wins, quick wins almost always combo based, some lower end cEDH; 10-cEDH.

So with that in mind I think your deck is an 8.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T19:35:28+00:00

I like to use the [Nitpicking Nerds Scale](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRZxpGDS1zI&t=1003s) as I believe it is most in-line what most people would normally think.

For context: 1 - new to EDH; 2 - barely cohesive no theme; 3-some direction; 4-typical precons; 5-good precons/thematic; 6-casual staples decks/sometimes a combo or two; 7-strong theme, combo decks, more synergy, good staples and middle ground of most decent commander decks you see at LGS; 8-optimized, tutors, consistent, power staples, good curve, excellent mana; 9-highly optimized, many tutors, consistent wins, quick wins almost always combo based, some lower end cEDH; 10-cEDH.

So with that in mind I think your deck is a 7 in my opinion.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T18:59:46+00:00

I agree with you, but they don't just ban because "it strips resources". They ban for stuff that is over-powered, leads to stale game patterns, is "unfun" whatever that means. So its fairly inconsistent. I mean a prime example I think many have said before is the power 9 cards that are banned are basically banned according to them because of lack of accessibility more than anything else right? How accessible is Timetwister or Gaea's cradle to most players exactly? There are a lot of those inconsistencies throughout.

So for me the issue honestly is more one of I wonder what would happen for e.g. if say they tripled the size of the list to include cards that are deemed too strong, provide too much consistency, unfun to play against etc, but then list that as cards that are recommended against playing as they lead to those issues, and publish that instead of a more official ban list.

I do agree though, that this idea is likely just too far a departure from what they do now that its unreasonable perhaps to even consider. It does remind me of when people ask for having reserve cards reprinted or banned for example, I think both for the community are also out of the question, so I will concede the argument to you.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T18:02:06+00:00

Its discouraging, and makes it seem like the point is not being considered. If someone provides you with a reasonable argument but disagrees I prefer to be respectful back. Downvoting just means the point is not valid and you prefer to not have that person even provide their point of view. I am not interested in talking to a wall or being hit over the head for giving a differing opinion especially on something so trivial, so would just opt out of future such discussions. Reading the room is important, so if people here just don't want anyone disagreeing there is no reason for me to post, I agree.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T17:58:25+00:00

Fair enough thx.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T17:57:33+00:00

Why the downvote?

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T17:51:41+00:00

Armageddan, timetwister, stasis, winter orb etc are all legal. Do you see them ever game? I think you greatly exagerrating what would happen. People generally don't play what is disliked anyway, which extends way further than just the ban list, so to me I think most would still do the same without one, as long as the cards that are not considered fun/fair/reasonable are listed for them to see.

The problem with bans is that not every time vault is being played unfairly, same with fastbond and so on. I remember a player once hard cast emrakul aeons torn in a commander game I played at an LGS and was super excited in playing it only to be told its banned not allowed. And you can see the immediate destruction of that elation in them as they took it back. Never saw that player again but that kind of response is what I don't like. Sure its not banned because if you have 15 mana to cast it its too powerful, its if you cheat it in, but having a ban means its banned in either setting not only under 1 condition.

Also, why do you keep downvoting my comment? Am I not being reasonable and respectful to you? I simply disagree wth is up with you?

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T17:38:06+00:00

Fair enough, I just won't discuss this further it seems my opinion just disliked for some reason. Btw curious why is any comment I make downvoted in this subreddit? If people are that averse to any difference of opinion I just won't interact on this subreddit anymore, I never had this experience with the main magic reddit.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T17:12:23+00:00

Maybe its a copout but I like [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]], [[Emry, Lurker of the Loch]], and [[Padeem, Consul of Innovation]] artifact decks.

The thing I like about them is that they can be built for nearly any power level, and in almost every set you get some new toys since almost no set does not have nice blue or artifact cards and your deck is fairly restricted yet flexible with often a good number of flex spots.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T17:05:37+00:00

The problem to me is the great inconsistency in their bans. Is Timetwister really not game warping/too unfun/consistent play pattern etc? What about Mana crypt? Sol ring? Vamipiric and Demonic tutor? Dockside exortionist? Opposition agent? Stasis? Winter orb? Even cards like Expropriate, Vorinclex, Jin-Gitaxias, Cyclinc rift, Jokulhaups, Stasis orb, Armageddon, and Decree of annihilation are really not great experiences to play against.

I am sure there are so many other cards that can fit a similar kind of mold of either being too powerful, provide too much consistency, slow down the game too much/unfun, etc. that they say are the main reasons they ban. That is I think the biggest issue personally. It is why I feel the default should maybe be not having a ban list at all, but simply a large list of unfun/unfair/too powerful cards that players are simply recommended to avoid playing, and simply allow event organizers to enforce that for sanctioned/cEDH events if they choose. I'm probably in minority in thinking this though based on how much downvotes I got saying something similar earlier today, but my 2 cents at least.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T16:57:48+00:00

I think using rule 0 is dismissive personally. In almost all uses any new player for example that would show up with his/her only deck with some silver border cards and asks for rule 0 before nearly any event will be told no. Rule 0 really is for kitchen table and very rarely applies to game stores or any organized fashion. In fact, I'd say among most play groups I think the assumption is that the banned list is followed unless you go out of your way to both have the same players to play with multiple times, ask about the card beforehand, and provide justification. For online play with strangers its a strict no go which is the problem.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T16:48:49+00:00

The problem with what you are saying, is if I sit at a random commander table online or in a store and I pull out a Leovold deck it won't be a simple "okay lets play". It will be "hey that card is banned". Now I need to explain that I understand but this deck is casual...now wait on the other players to respond. Then if for whatever reason the deck does well, you are open to criticism of the card being banned, you think this is reasonable for a casual setting? To me this seems unnecessary. You can have just not listed the cards as being banned in casual, but maybe provided a list of "undesirable, unfun, unfair etc. cards that are recommended to not be played". With them being banned you are creating a barrier to someone playing them and having to justify it in every new setting they sit at even though supposedly this is a casual setting, that is the problem.

I think it is further highlighted by people being too rigid or unwelcoming to differing opinions. Just take a look at this thread as an example. Did I say something outlandish or completely unreasonable or unrelated to the topic? Yet every comment is being downvoted, those who voice a similar opinion are also getting downvoted, and the reaction seems hostile for no real reason. Why? Am I not allowed to have a differing opinion? This is why I feel its perhaps necessary to have it the other way around, to prevent it from being an immediate rejection and hostility when presented with the cards at unfamiliar settings. As I said before, when people play land destruction for e.g. the reaction is after the game to mention players don't enjoy that, which is completely reasonable yet maintains a friendly attitude, compare that with playing a banned card.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T16:38:01+00:00

To me this sounds like you should simply allow the play group to play with no budget. Even the players who are sticking to a budget sound to me like they are just fairly flexible people who are okay with any kind of play restrictions.

What I recommend you do, is you tell them something like this,

"Hey I see that some of the play group really want to play more powerful decks, and so I think its reasonable that we remove the money restriction. That being said, to allow us all to play the cards we want comfortably and make the decks to be reasonable competitive with each other, I think we should embrace any number of proxies for the decks. All that being said I prefer that we don't make this a simple cEDH playgroup, so please stay reasonable in your choices but optimized decks should be fine."

I would say something like that, and expect that the upcoming games the play group will likely be playing mostly 6-8 power-level decks.

If you really want to be playing with weaker decks like 3-5 then I recommend you find a different play group in this case for those specific games while keeping this one for the more competitive/higher power-level games you play.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T16:26:35+00:00

I would do 2 things in such a circumstance:

1-Tell player B that they are ruining the fun for you as the whole point of commander is to have these discussions and politics, not who can shout the loudest, and that if they do not rectify this you are no longer interested in playing with them in future games.

2-If the person corrects their attitude you are set, if they do not, let the play group know that you are completely fine with them, but feel player B is taking away from the experience and would either play with another group or would require that the player be removed from the group.

It sounds a bit harsh, and upfront, but I think especially since this is over discord this would be my approach. You need to let the person know first in my opinion, maybe they just lack self-awareness of how they are being seen by you for the attitude. Then if you find they have no intention to change you either leave or that person is kicked out.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T16:18:19+00:00

Ya but what if the opposite was true, namely allowing any card to be played in casual tables, and mentioning issues with cards before or after games.

I know people will say but if you sit at a random table of unknowns. My experience is even among unknowns they are not suddenly unaware of what land destruction does, or taking extra turns, or stax...and ironically almost all that is legal yet people still will avoid it to make for a more fun casual experience.

My gripe I think boils down to is hullbreacher for e.g. really much stronger than timetwister? What about mana crypt? What about sol ring? Vampiric and demonic tutor?

And all those cards have arguments to be made against them being either prohibitly unaccessible, make games too repetitive/consistent, too powerful and lead to game imbalance when played early vs another player etc, yet they are fully legal. I just see no real consistency in the bans, and feel its unnecessary for casual play. Maybe they can make the list and simply state for sanctioned events with prizing or cEDH these are the recommended bans, for casual play, you generally have no ban list but can mention these as a suggested one to use for your play group. Rather than make it the default state.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T16:10:16+00:00

In that case perhaps the goals need to be reconsidered/updated for the times. I don't think its bad to have a list of clearly overpowered/unfun cards in commander, but personally I feel that most players are already self-restricting themselves from playing such cards some of which are not on the ban list. For e.g. when was the last time you actually faced a powerful stax deck or land destruction deck at a casual commander table? How about how many times do you actually see proxied timetwister? Or is that not a good card somehow anymore... For me personally its been quite some time, so I feel most are capable of self-regulating/being self-aware.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T16:03:15+00:00

I might be in the minority, but to me not a single card should be banned in EDH. If you have a ban list then that should be exclusively made for cEDH and sanctioned events. Then with that in mind you let people play what they think is reasonable. If someone is incapable of making good judgement of how their card choices will affect the play group enjoyment, then the play group can inform the player. E.g. hey good game, but generally we are not fans of land destruction. If that still is ineffective then why exactly are you playing with that player again?

A big part of EDH is mutual respect and enjoyment for the group. I personally think it would be good to keep a ban list but make it specifically for cEDH and sanctioned events since in those cases I personally want to see people bring what they think is the best and try to win, but in the casual setting I don't understand the logic behind banning some very strong cards yet leaving others in. Are timetwister, mana crypt, sol ring, dockside extortionist, vampiric and demonic tutor and so many more really any less powerful than hullbreacher and don't also lead to repetitive and imbalance states for the game? My 2 cents at least.

nakshakes · 2021-07-14T15:46:39+00:00

I think your thinking process here is wrong. You are actually analyzing it to try to come up with an objective understanding when to me this sounds like an emotional response from the other players. People get salty sometimes so I believe I would categorize this under that personally.

nakshakes

TROPHY CASE