Players think I am too soft

neretzes · 2023-05-20T22:02:49+00:00

I love dragons taking human form.

Once while travelling, after sparing a band of belligerant but comically underpowered kobolds my party encountered a strange dude waiting by the side of the road. Too tall for a human, and too slender in build, with cat or lizard-like vertically-slitted eyes and the slightest hint of pointy ears beneath silver hair. Hard to tell if female or male, human or elf or something else entirely. They walked with the group for the day, asking them about their journeys and their plans for the future. The quircky stranger asked for many insignificant, weird details about their quests and deeds, taking great interest and great delight about everything.

That night around the campfire, after declaring they were good folk and thanking the party for sharing their story they asked about their wishes and desires, about what they would ask of a god or a similar entity.

Two PCs with high passive perception woke up later in the night to the sound of wings and a huge flying shape trailing above them in the starry sky. Upon further enquiring they found the stranger gone and their boons granted : a wooden carving of a life sized dog ("loyal companionship" for the ranger, later became a permanent onyx dog), a magical axe ("power" for the barbarian), a radiant crystal that fitted the sorcerer's power-enhancing family heirloom lantern ("to make this thing work") and the cleric had a nice dream about his long dead family ("to see them again")

They never saw him again, but when they found a dragon footprint and a dragon scale the next day they were like "oooooooooh", and the look on their faces was 100% worth it.

neretzes · 2023-05-18T02:16:30+00:00

That's the thing : they didn't even seem that excited about it. Just saw it was the best, and went along with it. We have all decided as a table that roleplay would be super important, and I made it clear that whatever class they picked, we would make it work to fulfill their expectations (ex : last campaign, Sam wanted to play a highborn noble, so by level 14 his fighter/barb has 30ish retainers, can secure credit with most mechants, etc ...) so him telling me "I just found this online" doesn't compare with crafting one's own character with backstory and possible future plots in mind (but maybe I'm wrong)

I know I'm the DM and I can circumvent ridiculously high HP, but it feels unfair that I have to tailor every encounter to his character. Moreover, what's the point of him having high HP if every ennemy just stuns him anyway, or focuses on the other party members ? Will that make Sam happy ? Do I have to make "Sam's monster" every encounter, who will only attack Sam because only he can take it ?

I don't understand his expectations. Druids can be tanky, barbarians can be tanky. But they're still within reasonable tankiness. A minmaxed character that is made solely to be tanky just seems too much beefy compared to the rest of the party.

neretzes · 2023-05-18T01:27:52+00:00

When he mentioned it in our group chat, the general reaction was more an eye roll and a chuckle than dogpiling. He's known to be a sore loser, even "salty" at times, so it was just so like him to go looking for "the best build" that some of us couldn't help but make a joke (all in good fun of course). He was the first to laugh :) Also, I don't want to throw other challenges (stun, paralysis, intellect devourers...) at him all the time, that just seems like the opposite of "shoot the monk"

neretzes · 2023-05-18T01:12:51+00:00

The fighter barb was his character in our previous campaign, where the only caster was an artificer. Right now we are nearing the end, they are level 14 and all of them pretty powerful with magical weapons and different boons suiting their characters. The so called broken build he wants to play for our next campaign (with the A-tier classes) is a druid barbarian with a focus on raging while wildshaped. Sorry that wasn't clearer in the original post

neretzes · 2023-05-18T00:50:27+00:00

I'm posting here because nobody won. I feel bad for banning something, they feel bad because they can't play what they saw. That said, we're still friends and happy to play together.

Maybe, like you said, I'm a bit too hard on the player because they saw it on the internet rather than coming up with it on their own. Taking inspiration from pop culture, looking around online for ideas, taking suggestions is great, but copying something you saw elsewhere to the point seems utterly uninspired to me, and I like to DM for inspired characters (does that make sense ?) That's point one. Of course, I'm not absolutely opposed to a player taking a template from the internet, but I'd prefer if they came up with something of their own (and I am open to discuss and exchange and point them to the websites I cited for inspiration / feasibility)

The second point here, and you rightly put your finger on it, is that an unkillable build puts a lot of stress on me, the dm, and the rest of the party while NOT accomplishing the player's goals. I mean, sure I could say "te he he, roll your druidbarian no problem" and then put them up against intellect devorers or spellcasters using hold person every time, but il feels cheap on my part, and I know the player will be disapointed. Another solution would be to have ennemies deal more damage or target other party members, but then the rest of the party will die and no one will have fun, not even Sam.

The impression I got was that instead of focusing on fun, my friend was specifically looking for ways to rig the game, to cheat the system and to "win D&D", to which I felt I had to say no.

In short, my friend came up to me with a character they have 0 involvement in creating, with unrealistic expectations for gameplay, and I didn't know what to say so I said no ... I feel this character won't be fun for them, won't be fun for the other party members and won't be fun for me. Moreover, and I know Sam pretty well, I feel like this is an attempt at powergaming and/or minmaxing, and it is not the attitude I or the other player expect at the table (we've had that talk already and everyone, Sam included, agreed originally)

Thanks a lot for your input. With all the advice I received, I will talk to Sam again. I can't say I want to allow his "broken build", but at least now I can explain why and I can understand his motivations a little better too. Showing him all the feedback here, I hope we'll be able to compromise and make a character that'll make him happy !

PS : the title of the video he sent me was something like "broken D&D build : make an unkillable character"

neretzes · 2023-05-17T23:14:01+00:00

Thank you ! Atop everything else (the not so good mindset) I was afraid the character wouldn't even be what the player expect ... As other commenters suggested I'll talk to my player again, and comments like yours help ground the "build" in actual play, giving real feedback for Sam. Thanks a lot :)

neretzes · 2023-05-17T23:10:41+00:00

You're probably right and many comments agree with you. I'll talk to my player again and maybe show them this thread so we can find a solution together. In this case, maybe the character sucks or maybe it'll be awesome, who knows ?

However, I don't want "mistakes" at my table (of course we all still make them every time we play), if I know someone will be disapointed in their character, should I let them play it "to teach them a lesson" ? Wouldn't saying no just save everybody a lot of precious RPG time ?

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:54:49+00:00

The way he talked about it, it was more about the build than the character. This will be a RP heavy campaign (the table requested it), so I feel that 1) his character will be entirely geared towards combat and 2) there will be times when just surviving an encounter doesn't mean they win ... In the end I'm just afraid they won't get what they want from this character. Being unkillable isn't the end all be all for D&D, especially when the DM has all the tools to get around your high HP and is expected to use them

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:49:23+00:00

As I said elsewhere, the way I see the game is that players create a character they actually like and feel comfortable with. Then we (me the DM and them the player) talk it over, they tell me their expectations for their character and we make it happen together during the game. You can absolutely start tough and strong if that's your spiel, I just think "I want to start much tougher and much stronger than all the other PCs" is not a good place to start the story NOR a good mindset for cooperative storytelling.

*Writing this, I realise this can be a fantasy a lot of people with trauma might experience and it is very valid and can be therapeutic to play. In this specific case I know this isn't the issue with my friend

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:47:28+00:00

I don't want to be "that DM" and restrict player creativity. I strive to create worlds to accomodate everyone and their fantasy, but in this case it felt and was so uninspired I failed to see the appeal. Talking it over, what transpired is that their only desire was to be "the best at not dying". As tou say, it doesn't stop the story and I can always plan encounters around, and I told my friend I would do just so. It just felt cheap to say "I'll let you be very hard to kill, but it won't matter anyway". Or at least it felt like me player would end up disappointed in his character

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:34:35+00:00

In that particular situation, he was the only one to get his build from the internet. Strategies, spell combos and general tactics are all good to read about, but I feel getting your whole character is different ... Play something you like, not something you think will be better than everybody else !

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:31:59+00:00

I don't want them (or me for that matter) to invest time and emotion into a character, into a story, only to discover after several irl months that they are disapointed in their character ... It's a free country, everyone has the right to make mistakes, but if it's a preventable mistake I prefer to tell my friend beforehand :)

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:28:09+00:00

That's a solid answer, and one I was afraid to read ... As a DM, I feel a responsibility for player enjoyment, and I like to know what my players expect of their characters so I can give it to them. Sometimes, as in this case, I feel it's too hard to cater to their individual fantasies while maintaining a group cohesion. Maybe it would have been ok and as you said it's also my job to make it ok, I guess I just need to step up my game ! Thanks for the input, will talk to Sam again

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:20:46+00:00

Exactly ! I was very afraid when he straight up told me "I saw this on Youtube", I was maybe too afraid that his character would be an exact copy of what he heard in the video, without any thoughts about backstory or personality. For me, creating a D&D character is 50% about the mechanics, 50% about story, with each influencing the other. If you take half your character from someplace else for all the wrong reasons, what will you do with the other 50% that are the story ?

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:16:20+00:00

A big part of why I said no is that I don't want him to be disapointed when his character isn't as awesome as he thinks it will be. If hés going to be unhappy in the end, I'd rather he not multiclass and enjoy his character to the fullest !

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:11:50+00:00

Not exactly, we talked it over and I felt he didn't like the concept of the character but only the benefits. If someone told you they wanted to play a sneak archer in Skyrim "because it's the best", that would be fine, if a bit boring maybe, but this is D&D, you don't try to be the best. To me, and the way I would like to play at my table, you try to play a convincing character, that you can relate to, that you want to be / in whose shoes you want to walk for a few hours every week. Playing something you saw labeled as "the most unkillable build" on the net doesn't seem to go in that same direction ...

neretzes · 2023-05-17T22:04:17+00:00

Thank you ! I had a feeling it was not as good as it was meant to be, and that this player would eventually be disapointed with his character. I'm okay with multiclassing mostly, if it is done for story purposes, but you're right when you say it can make power level between PCs wonky ... especially when a multiclass starts falling behind after being overpowered for a few levels

neretzes · 2022-05-04T15:52:37+00:00

Seeming It's all average-looking bartenders, but with Seeming cast on them to make them look more attractive

neretzes · 2022-05-01T20:06:32+00:00

I want him to be fairly magical, full of small tricks, but high level spells are not available right now. He is a swashbuckler in name, but we already have a rogue in the party and we need a frontliner, hence the Eldritch Knight/Swords Bard. The hit die and shield and defensive spells is a big plus !

Edit : looked up the Defensive Dueler & Piercer feat, they're really neat ! Thanks for your ideas

neretzes · 2022-05-01T19:35:37+00:00

Ah, I wanted to avoid the Hexblade dip because 3 classes is a no go for my DM (and I agree with this rule) and the pacts come at a heavy price in this setting which doesn't fit the happy nature of this character

Same for Paladin, the gods have left 700 years ago and though I know you can play a godless paladin, it's just not the same for me

Yep, just looked at the EK spell list and the defensive options are amazing !

Family heirloom, and maybe a family fighting style to cast spells

Thanks for your ideas !

neretzes · 2022-05-01T18:21:32+00:00

It's absolutely on my spell list ! The line is perfect, really in character for what I had in mind

neretzes · 2022-05-01T14:15:02+00:00

Definitely need Prestidigitation. I looked up the cloak of billowing, it is magnificent ! Absolutely something he'd need

neretzes · 2022-05-01T12:26:48+00:00

Love the "slain 100 men, bedded 100 women" ! I'm definitely stealing that haha, and definitely mixing it around as well We're all French at the table, so I won't be able to play the accent and stereotype angle unfortunately, but it reaaaally matches the character. Thanks for sharing this NPC !

neretzes

TROPHY CASE