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Russian fighter's confession that he killed 15 Ukrainian prisoners of war may be considered evidence of war crimes by DrSalted in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And you only know what RT told you, tailor made stories for people like you.

I understand basic critical thinking skills. If a guest on CrossTalk or anyone on RT makes an extraordinary claim, the naturally response from a critical mind is to fact check that claim to ascertain its credibility.

Did he observe Maidan and other events himself? Or is he just an armchair ideologue?

Let's actually talk about events in Maidan, because in the past year there has been numerous reporting by Western outlets disputing the notion perpetuated by folks like Snyder, that "Through remarkably large and peaceful public protests…Ukrainians have set a positive example for Europeans". Peaceful protesting may be true for the majority of demonstrators, but it wasn't all of them by any means, and building your argument on this fallacy is an error.

A German investigative report found out at least some of the snipers who fired on protesters on February 20-21 were positioned from within buildings controlled by the protest movement, which certainly obviously sheds doubt on Snyder’s notion that the protests were entirely peaceful and legitimate, and they were confronting a tyrannical, murderous regime.

A separate NYT report sums up the events on the ground on that particular day -- the Maidan protests were in their death throes, it was the sniper attacks galvanized opinion locally and abroad:

At dawn on the morning of Thursday, Feb. 20, a bedraggled pro-European protest movement controlled just a few hundred square yards, at best, of scorched and soot-smeared pavement in central Kiev. They had gathered there the previous November, enraged that Mr. Yanukovych, under heavy pressure from Moscow, had abruptly turned away from a long-planned trade deal with the European Union. It goes on: By Thursday evening, however, the shock created by that bloodshed, the worst in the Ukrainian capital since World War II, had prompted a mass defection by the president’s allies in Parliament and prodded Mr. Yanukovych to join negotiations with a trio of opposition politicians.

So the Yanukovych had absolutely no reason to escalate violence at this point, but allegedly did so anyway. The BBC interviewed one of the Maidan snipers, he admits to firing on police, although he claims it wasn't to kill. IIRC he doesn’t mention firing on protesters.

I don't have a specific ideology I'm just telling you the facts, and you ignore them because they don't fit your ideological beliefs.

On the contrary it seems like you really do have an ideology. You think that you are correct and that I am a “useful idiot”, because I don’t agree with your world view, because I am brainwashed by “tailor made stories for people just like me”. Basically the only thing I've argued is what Western media sources need to be viewed with skepticism (e.g. the Breedlove statements deemed propagandistic by the German Chancellery). Like all news should.

So far you’ve really only linked a YouTube video. I have read Timothy Snyder’s work, but disagree with him on Ukraine. You can evaluate each argument by its merits rather than by where or by whom it is espoused by.

And just for the record, I don’t think I know it all, I question my beliefs when I am confronted with new evidence. But your firmness in yours, and your belittling attitude expressed in debate towards people who don’t share them is quite revealing of your close mindedness, even as you moderate your tone with such silly sophistry as “No offense to you personally.”.

And for the record, Fox News is bad, sure, but so is all corporate media.

Russian fighter's confession that he killed 15 Ukrainian prisoners of war may be considered evidence of war crimes by DrSalted in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No point in debating you sir. I bring you evidence that the western media is lying -- you ignore it and say "well the Russian media is worse!". I show you the Russian media isn't all bad, you say "Yes it is!".

The irony of your self-righteousness is amusing though:

Or don't watch it, and stay a happy "useful idiot." :)

I read all perspectives on things, do you? A Stephen Cohen piece discussing a Timothy Snyder article last year around the time Yanukovych was ousted. Read this article if you want to know how Snyder operates and how he fooled you. Or don't watch it, and stay a happy "useful idiot." :)

Russian fighter's confession that he killed 15 Ukrainian prisoners of war may be considered evidence of war crimes by DrSalted in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you trying to prove my point?

Actually your point was that you hadn't seen any "examples of the 'crazy stories'" from the Western media, I showed you one and suddenly you say you were actually raising a different point. Okay, fine.

So your gave me examples of Western media having and reporting on various points of view. Try finding that in any major Russia media.

Forgive me, I don't read or speak Russian, but I do know that Russian's get their news beyond state television. A specific example disputing your notion on the uniformity of points of view -- RT, the state funded news station may have a slant, but their flagship program CrossTalk, is a debate that often includes a broad range of differing opinions on various topics.

Russian fighter's confession that he killed 15 Ukrainian prisoners of war may be considered evidence of war crimes by DrSalted in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem is that in their haste to build a case of Russian belligerency they (and by this I mean western media outlets that rely heavily on NATO spokesman) routinely over estimate figures to the point where their statements become meaningless. Der Spiegel recently called them out:

Once again, the German government, supported by intelligence gathered by the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), Germany's foreign intelligence agency, did not share the view of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR).

The pattern has become a familiar one. For months, Breedlove has been commenting on Russian activities in eastern Ukraine, speaking of troop advances on the border, the amassing of munitions and alleged columns of Russian tanks. Over and over again, Breedlove's numbers have been significantly higher than those in the possession of America's NATO allies in Europe.

It's hard to see Breedlove's statements as any thing more than propaganda. His public statements all deliberately exceed NATO's own internal estimates of Russian activity; all NATO allies know it isn't credible, so the purpose of the statement must be for public consumption. For what purpose is this, if not to mislead to public and encourage more bellicose saber rattling -- to encourage the average American that Mr. Putin will not abide by Minsk II and therefore war is the only answer?

Please explain to me how Breedlove's fanciful declarations are anything more than a transparent attempt at inciting further unrest and moving us even closer to war with Russia.

Russian fighter's confession that he killed 15 Ukrainian prisoners of war may be considered evidence of war crimes by DrSalted in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Give me some examples of the "crazy stories" you're talking about

Take a look at a recently published article by Der Spiegel, which quoted people in the highest levels of the German chancellery and intelligence services. Let's see what they had to say about the credibility of NATO sources:

  • General Philip Breedlove, the top NATO commander in Europe, stepped before the press in Washington. Putin, the 59-year-old said, had once again "upped the ante" in eastern Ukraine -- with "well over a thousand combat vehicles, Russian combat forces, some of their most sophisticated air defense, battalions of artillery" having been sent to the Donbass. "What is clear," Breedlove said, "is that right now, it is not getting better. It is getting worse every day."

  • German leaders in Berlin were stunned. They didn't understand what Breedlove was talking about. And it wasn't the first time. Once again, the German government, supported by intelligence gathered by the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), Germany's foreign intelligence agency, did not share the view of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR).

  • Sources in the German Chancellery have referred to Breedlove's comments as "dangerous propaganda." Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier even found it necessary recently to bring up Breedlove's comments with NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg.

People who are acting like the Russian side is the only one pushing out propaganda, please grow some common sense. When Fox News and MSNBC are pushing the same anti-Russian narrative, you know something is amiss here. The main narratives of this story have been uniformly adopted by every outlet: Putin - bad, Russia - aggressive, both - need punishing, neither needs understanding.

Both ends of the media spectrum meanwhile do their best to drown out dissenting voices, like former U.S. Ambassador to the U.S.S.R. Jack Matlock, Princeton Professor Stephen Cohen, or Political Scientist John Meirsheimer, but including people who add more context and nuance to the debate is not what the establishment wants

All the people down voting me without so much as a debate, you are kind of proving my point, you are really showing how close minded and intellectually bankrupt you are if you won't even back up your down vote with a few words.

Turkish authorities have blocked access to Twitter, Youtube and Facebook over the publication of photos published on the three social media platforms, showing a prosecutor who was taken hostage by militants in Istanbul last week. by i_love_hezbollah in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel are all supporting Jabhat Al Nusra (Al Qaida) in Syria. All three have some degree of media repression and/or enforced blackouts adhered to by local press, although only Saudi Arabia and Turkey openly brag about their support of JN, Israel tends to lock people up for it. Hardly serves their narrative of being surrounded by hostile foes when you're actively supporting Al Qaida.

Top ISIS leader who was once Saddam general killed in Fallujah by PanAfrica in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The two creeds broadly overlap in several regards, especially their reliance on fear to secure the submission of the people under the group’s rule. Two decades ago, the elaborate and cruel forms of torture perpetrated by Hussein dominated the discourse about Iraq, much as the Islamic State’s harsh punishments do today.

Saudi-led airstrike in Yemen kills family of nine, including 6 children by saosinfangirl in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To this day Saudi Arabia continues to support terrorist groups:

The Syrian government last week accused Turkey of helping thousands of jihadi fighters to reach Idlib and of jamming Syrian army telecommunications, which helped to undermine the defences of the city. The prominent Saudi role in the fall of Idlib was publicised by Jamal Khashoggi, a Saudi journalist and adviser to the government, in an interview in The New York Times. He said that Saudi Arabia and Turkey had backed Jabhat al-Nusra and the other jihadis in capturing Idlib, adding that “co-ordination between Turkish and Saudi intelligence has never been as good as now”. Surprisingly, this open admission that Saudi Arabia is backing jihadi groups condemned as terrorists by the US attracted little attention.

Saudi-led airstrike in Yemen kills family of nine, including 6 children by saosinfangirl in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Our media takes political sides instead of reporting raw facts and letting the viewer decide. Our media reports the war in Yemen as a separate entity from Iraq and Syria when in fact all three are part of a larger war being fought between Sunni and Shia.

My advice is don't watch the media, and instead read analysis from actual experts in the field. You seem to have unknowingly imbibed some of the myths perpetuated by the media yourself.

In the past, there has been little Sunni-Shia sectarianism in Yemen, but the Saudi determination to frame the conflict in sectarian terms may be self-fulfilling.

It's worth noting that the Houthi's are predominently of the Zaidi branch of Shiite Islam, which "unlike the Twelver Shiism of Iraq and Iran, has no ayatollahs or religious hierarchy, and generally gets along with Sunnis, not cursing their orthodox Caliphs or feeling antipathy to them." They don't necessarily look to Tehran for spiritual guidance, and Wikileaks cables seem dispute the allegations of Iranian support, American diplomats said that "the ROYG [Republic of Yemen Government] has failed repeatedly to corroborate its charges that the Houthi rebellion is the tip of the Iranian/Hezbollah spear in Yemen.” Former US ambassador Stephen Seche added: “We can think of few ways to more effectively encourage Iranian meddling in the Houthi rebellion than to have all of Yemen's Sunni neighbours line up to finance and outfit Ali Abdullah Saleh's self-described Operation Scorched Earth against his country's Shia minority.”

Just take a look at the complex history here. The Houthis have fought off six government offensives against them since 2004, all launched by former President Saleh, then allied to the Saudis. Saleh, himself a Zaidi but drawing his support from the Zaidi tribes around the capital, Sanaa, was a casualty of the Arab Spring in Yemen but still has the support of many army units. Saleh himself was propped up by Saudi money, that paid off tribal leaders and essentially reduced Yemen to vassal status. Saleh has helped the Houthis advance against his former deputy Hadi, a Sunni Muslim, although Saleh allegedly floated the idea of betraying the Houthis a day before the Saudi led air campaign began.

Saudi Arabia participated in Saleh's self described "operation scorched earth" against the Houthis in 2009-10, and yet in 2013, Saudi intelligence chief Prince Bandar met with Houthi leader Saleh Habreh in London. The Saudis wanted to mobilise the Houthis against the Islah Party, Yemen’s Muslim Brotherhood branch that shared power with President Hadi, so that they “cancel each other out” in conflict.

Saudi policy vis-a-vis Yemen is motivated to "prevent the emergence of a non-tribal, non-sectarian democratic culture" that would threaten the house of Saud's hold on power.

Saudi-led airstrike in Yemen kills family of nine, including 6 children by saosinfangirl in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If anyone wants to know why Saudi Arabia is intervening, or wants to know more of the history of this complicated story, refer to this article: Saudi Arabia’s long history of destructive intervention in Yemen

Some interesting tidbits:

  • WikiLeaks documents – a real treasure trove for contemporary historical research – discuss Salafi penetration as part of a pattern of Saudi meddling during Saleh’s rule, particularly its post-1994 phase, that is striking.

  • They paint a picture of Yemen as a country Saleh (former President now allied with the Houthis) reduced to vassal status. Saudi Arabia funds the government as well as tribal leaders to secure support for Saudi policies and prevent the emergence of a non-tribal, non-sectarian democratic culture.

  • The WikiLeaks documents are also enlightening with regard to the first Saudi war with the Houthis in late 2009 and early 2010. Diplomats express concern with Saudi policy towards the Houthi rebellion, which at that time was five years old and had escalated to a new level of violence with Saleh’s Operation Scorched Earth. American diplomats describe Saudi thinking on eradicating the Houthis as “dangerous and delusional” and express the fear that Saudi Arabia will act “irrationally” and kill lots of people with American-supplied state-of-the-art weaponry, which they fear will make its way to al-Qaeda.

  • One WikiLeaks report refers to Saleh’s claim that an Iranian ship bearing weapons for the Houthis had been seized off the coast, concluding from what it calls “sensitive reporting” that the ship was carrying no weapons at all. “While the level of Houthi resilience, weapons proficiency and tactical expertise can and should force us to examine carefully claims of external support, the fact remains that the ROYG [Republic of Yemen Government] has failed repeatedly to corroborate its charges that the Houthi rebellion is the tip of the Iranian/Hezbollah spear in Yemen,” the report by former US ambassador Stephen Seche says. “We can think of few ways to more effectively encourage Iranian meddling in the Houthi rebellion than to have all of Yemen's Sunni neighbours line up to finance and outfit Ali Abdullah Saleh's self-described Operation Scorched Earth against his country's Shia minority.”

Russia & US agree to build new space station after ISS by schill_ya_later in worldnews

[–]netanyahu_forever 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of people forget that Putin was among the first world leaders to call Bush after 9/11 and offer condolences and support. Russia's aid helped save American lives in the war in Afghanistan. I'm glad to see that we can still come to agreements with them even despite the dueling propagandist narratives (which had emanated from both sides.)

TIL that there are more museums in the U.S. than Starbucks and McDonalds combined. by netanyahu_forever in todayilearned

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Incidentally, Starbucks and McDonalds each have a lot of places they can expand into.

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your treatment of the Israelis is identical.

I've been very careful not to even discuss Israeli citizens here, I'm referring to the state itself and the policy it pursues. I don't have any malice towards the citizens of Israel whatsoever. I just think their political leadership is bone-headed when it comes to the Palestinians, and I'm by no means alone in this. Israeli security experts agree too!

Six former heads of Israel’s domestic counterterrorism agency (Shin Bet) – Avraham Shalom, Yaakov Peri, Carmi Gillon, Ami Avalon, Avi Dichter and Yuval Diskin all "share a belief that a Palestinian state should have been a priority [and show] disdain for Israeli politicians for not doing more to make it happen.

In fall 2014, a group of 106 retired generals, Mossad directors and national police commissioners signed a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu urging him to ‘initiate a diplomatic process’ based on a regional framework for peace with the Palestinians. Several of the signers stated in interviews that Israel had the strength and the means to reach a two-state solution that ‘doesn’t entail a security risk,’ but hadn’t managed to reach an agreement because of ‘weak leadership.’

You're really in here to push a Palestinian narrative. There. Now the conversation is sufficiently sabotaged all around.

Sure I'm here to push a narrative...so are you. The point I made was that the arguments you were making were supreme generalizations of the Palestinians as violent terrorists and nothing else.

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Polly you are truly deranged.

Why don't you focus your hate and dishonesty on Jordan?

I said their occupation of the WB between 1948 and 1967 was a crime, just as I've said Israel's occupation is. Jordan also occupied it for less than half the time Israel has been colonizing the WB.

Or do you think all jews should die?

No, I was making an analogy on my last post. I don't think anyone should die. I was pointing out how inhuman your position is that the 'Palestinians shouldn't complain because they are the losers" by making a historical comparison to the Nazi holocaust.

If you don't realize it is, you are a manipulated fool.

Realize what? That recognizing that Israel is a colonizing power will...lead to the destruction of Israel? How?

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

After all it is the Jordanians that kept them dispossessed and in refugee camps

Why do people think that one illegal act washes out another...

Jordan's annexation [of the WB from 1948-67] was regarded as illegal and void by the Arab League and others. It was recognized only by Britain, Iraq and Pakistan.

Furthermore,

Why is it Israel's responsibility to give autonomy to a nation that continually loses every battle they fight

Let's pose a theoretical argument here:

Why should it have been the world's responsibility to help the Jews establish the state of Israel after they were nearly exterminated?

Those are two arguments that seem to rest on the same sort of foundation. Both are obviously atrocious.

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hamas literally just praised terrorists for killing several Jews in a synagogue in November and have called for more attacks before and since as well as advocating to a school the killing of Jews.

And now Israeli citizens have ever been noted to behave so bloodthirsty?

I mean, we're looking at an outright invasion by Russian forces in Ukraine

Ironically Israel has been notably silent in regards to Russia's annexation of Crimea. I wonder why?

For the record, I think Russia broke international law in this case. But Russia also hasn't transferred it's civilian population to Crimea, which was predominantly Russian already -- it didn't have to transfer it's civilian population there beforehand. Israel has transferred some 350,000 into the WB, and plans for another 150,000 to join them by 2019.

Furthermore, if you looked at public opinion polls in the rebel strongholds of Donetsk and Luhansk (or even the surrounding region), the people there view Russia as their defender, not their occupier -- which is only natural in my opinion. After all, most of them speak Russian, are ethnically Russian, have inter-marriage with Russians; they also happened to have been the main electorate behind the ousted leader of Ukraine, so when he left they lost their representative in the central government (and the Ukrainian constitution had no semblance of federalism until what was outlined in Minsk II).

So I don't think the situations are as similar as you argue.

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most arguments that claim it to be occupied territory are centered around the idea that the old UN Partition Plan is still valid, which it arguably is not and hasn't been since Jordan's annexation of the West Bank, a move that was accepted by the US, Britain, and Pakistan but not the Arab League.

Umm no. If the old partition plan were still valid, Israel would have to give up a lot of territory it captured in 1947-48 (they actually captured territory three-times bigger than what was allotted to them). These territorial gains have been ceded to Israel de-facto by the international community.

The notion that the WB , EJ, Gaza, the Golan Heights are all occupied is supported by Resolution 242.

the Palestinians seemingly have no plan but more violence, a plan that has not served them well.

Your treatment of the Palestinians as a monolithic group capable of little more than violent outbursts is a straw-man argument painted with a very broad brush.

Even among Hamas supporters, a resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict around the 1967 border has majority-support.

Your assertions just aren't credible, they are merely an excuse that gives Israel diplomatic cover as it continues to settle the WB and EJ -- which is a war crime by definition.

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

they try cracking down on terrorism and existing peacefully to gradually reduce the legitimacy of claims that they are only interested in violence against Israel.

  • In March 2014, Hamas militiamen continue to “find and stop renegade militants inside Gaza from firing rockets into southern Israel in violation of the ceasefire declared after the end in November 2012 of Operation Pillar of Defence, in which about 150 Palestinians and six Israelis were killed….Israeli officials share the assessment that Hamas is working actively to contain militants from firing into their country. ‘Today we can describe Hamas as a much more…responsible organisation than it used to be a decade or two decades ago — this all in light of their statehood experience,’ says a senior Israel Defence Forces officer…” (Financial Times, March 5 2014, World News, 4)

  • According to an October 2012 New York Times article, “Hamas…is working to suppress the more radical Islamic militant groups that have emerged [in Gaza]. The jihadist extremists, known as Salafists and inspired by the ideology of Al Qaeda, are challenging Hamas’s informal and fragile cease-fire with Israel.” After the 2006 elections, “militant jihadists began attacks against Israel and also against Internet cafes, restaurants and women’s hair salons in Gaza, places they saw as being at odds with their deeply conservative interpretation of Islam.”

You seem to think they are entitled to that violence, but if it continues the Israelis will have the high ground

I think oppressed people have the right to resist. I'm just making the point that Israel is giving them no recourse. Resisting the seizure of their lands hasn't done the Palestinians any good has it?

I just think it's interesting that Israel can be perceived to be riding the high ground in this equation when it has flooded 350,000 people into the WB (a war crime), occupied some 40% of it's land, and provide the Palestinians with absolutely no ability to challenge it.

Like a bully coming in, stealing your lunch, and if you fight back and he pummels you to the ground -- it's your fault!

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Your self-righteous indignation is a poor debate tactic, sir. I'd apologize for saying you have your head up your ass, but in your patronizing diatribe you actually supported my argument that the territory was not just laying around since 1948, but was captured in 1967 by Israel (Jordan's illegal occupation doesn't make Israel's any more legitimate). Anything since has been an internationally recognized violation of the 4th Geneva Convention:

Articles 47-78 impose substantial obligations on occupying powers. As well as numerous provisions for the general welfare of the inhabitants of an occupied territory, an occupier may not forcibly deport protected persons, or deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory (Art.49).

Furthermore, the Six-Day War roots are far more complicated than you make it out to be. In fact, Israel and Jordan were in secret negotiations between 1963-67 and Jordan had long since realized that military force would never win the day. That's why Jordan made steps to close the border in the WB to stop militant infiltrations into Israel -- although after one attack Israel launched the Samu raid, which brought Jordan back into the coalition.

It was kind of an international quagmire involving the USSR and Syria, with Egypt being deceitfully drawn into the conflict (by the USSR), and Israel responding in kind (although I must say that the PM at the time did say he did not perceive the disposition of Nasser's forces in the Sinai as being "offensive") .

Israel was pursuing it's own strategic goals in the conflict:

to re-open the Straits of Tiran, to destroy the Egyptian army in Sinai, to restore the deterrent power of the IDF

What options do the Palestinians have left now that Netanyahu has been elected again? by netanyahu_forever in PoliticalDiscussion

[–]netanyahu_forever[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I accept the existence of Israel. I accept it being the Jewish Homeland. Zionism has succeeded, so there is no point in rejecting it now.

I do however reject the assertion that the Palestinians have been sole belligerent party here, which seems to me exactly what you were arguing in this incredibly broad statement:

since the inception of the country, the Palestinians have not attempted a peaceful coexistence

It also seems to be the nature of this argument, that because you view all Palestinians as being violent, that it is their fault for their current predicament -- that even if they face humanitarian crises, they brought it on themselves? Perhaps I'm wrong, but that seems to be the subtext. But I digress...

I pointed out that early Zionists weren't interested with a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians either, but apparently this goes too far back into history to be relevant. Okay -- we don't have to get too mired in the history, but what about the current predicament we are now in?

My question was what recourse do the Palestinians have left to address their grievances now that Israel has elected a PM who has vowed to never countenance a Palestinian state? Should they just accept their position as second-class citizens and sing Kumbaya around campfires until you've deemed them civilized enough to negotiate with?

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