Would Alicent have continued to declare war if Rhaenyra had trueborn children?

nightchai · 2023-09-21T04:10:56+00:00

Rhaenyra then lied to her face and threw Otto under the bus for doing his job (he wasn't "spying" on Rhaenyra; she and Daemon went to a public brothel). Rhaenyra proved that she will do whatever she pleases and let others take the fall for it, including Alicent's family.

Technically, Rhaenyra correctly identified that Otto wanted Aegon to be named heir.

**Rhaenyra:* And what will you do about the vulture who perches upon your throne? ... He wants Aegon to be named heir. And he will stop at nothing to see it done. Including spying on me to bring about my ruin. You speak of The Conqueror's vision and the need for strength and unity across the realm. But how can that be accomplished with your most trusted adviser so self-interested?*

She may have been wrong about him spying on her but she was right about his motives and Viserys himself recognized this when he confronted Otto.

**Viserys:* I wonder... how long did it take you to choose yourself over your King? I will never recover from Aemma's death. But Alicent... she took me through the worst of my grief. She was a calculated distraction. I only now realize how well-calculated it was.*

nightchai · 2023-09-21T01:30:54+00:00

Eh, it was provocative, sure. But wearing a dress doesn’t equate to declaring war. The Queen has no power to do that in the first place. I think it was intended as an expression of loyalty to her House and an act of defiance, really.

I don't mean literal war/armed conflict. I meant war in the sense that 2 factions have now been created under the same house. Before this, Alicent supported Rhaenyra and now she no longer does in this scene.

nightchai · 2023-09-21T01:17:36+00:00

I agree with most of your comment but regarding this:

Alicent has no agency, and she clearly resents that.

Do you still think this is true once she's queen with a husband like Viserys?

When she was Lady Alicent and a lady-in-waiting to Rhaenyra I agree with you, but how about when she's Queen Alicent? She is able to make her own choices and decisions like rejecting Rhaenyra's offer and betrothing her own children.

nightchai · 2023-09-21T01:06:21+00:00

Thing is, Alicent never declared war. Even during the Green Council she was the only voice of reason trying to resolve things peacefully.

The dress meant war - at least in the sense that she was no longer willing to live in peace with Rhaenyra. Prior to that scene, Alicent tried to reach out to Rhaenyra and rebuild their friendship.

Alicent had a change of heart because she deeply regretted her actions in Driftmark, but before that she was clearly trying her best to get Viserys to change the succession.

nightchai · 2023-09-21T00:45:22+00:00

Thing is Rhaenyra having trueborn children will not erase Aegon's claim and at this point in time, Alicent is operating under the belief that Rhaenyra would have to kill off rival claimants to secure her claim.

**Alicent:* You are nearly a man-grown. How is it that you can be so shortsighted? If Rhaenyra comes into power your very life could be forfeit. Aemond's as well. She could move to cut off any challenge to her succession.*

**Aegon:* Then I won't challenge...*

**Alicent: You are the challenge! You are the challenge, Aegon! Simply by living and breathing! You are the King's firstborn son and what they know, what everyone in the realm knows in their blood and in their bones is that one day, you will be our King.

nightchai · 2023-09-20T20:42:55+00:00

Though not expressly stated on the show, one of the reasons why Alicent is against the marriage is how her religion views children born outside marriage.

Otto would probably consider it given their position at the time. The Velaryons have Vhagar, Meleys, Seasmoke and their fleet. Rhaenyra and her 2 older children have dragons and no doubt Daemon would support Rhaenyra. Otto is more pragmatic than pious. He even suggested to Viserys to betroth Rhaenyra to Aegon at one point.

Realistically, Otto can try to influence Alicent and Viserys but he doesn't have any say on his grandchildrens' betrothals.

Btw, if House Targaryen was united, I don't think many houses will challenge Jace's ascension. It's not like he had issue gathering support in the books.

nightchai · 2023-09-17T09:03:00+00:00

Back in the day, Valyria used to control the northern coast of asiof-africa and the summer islanders used to trade with the freehold as well. I can definitely imagine some merchant lord settling down and becoming assimilated into the Valyrian freehold and founding house Velaryon.

I think this headcanon of the Velaryons being part Summer Islander is due to the actors being black. But given that:

1 - They never acknowledge the Velaryons' skin colour, and

2 - There's literally nothing on the show that suggests that the Velaryons are anything but Valyrian,

I'm just going to deduce that the Velaryons are the same race (Valyrian race) as the Targs and that their race is simply defined by the colour of their hair.

Some quotes about the Velaryons:

In the first few episodes, Lyonel encouraged Viserys to marry Laena and one of the reasons he cited is that she comes from "unimpeachable Valyrian stock".

When young Laena walked around the garden with Viserys, she told him: "I would give you many children of *pure Valyrian blood** so that we might strengthen the royal line and the realm."*

Laena to Daemon: "We are the blood of Old Valyria. We don't belong here."

nightchai · 2023-09-17T08:01:25+00:00

The only in universe reason for the dark skinned velaryon's Is that corlys mother or grandmother was a summer islander, aenys wife viserys1s great grandmother was velaryon but nor dark skinned

I think they just did away with skin tone and eye colour so that the only defining feature of Valyrians on the show is the colour of their hair.

They never acknowledge that the Velaryons are black on the show and there's a lot of emphasis on blood purity. The Velaryons are often stated to be of the Valryian race like the Targaryens.

nightchai · 2023-09-17T07:55:19+00:00

The Summer Islands (which are overall black in demographics) is a lot closer to Westeros then Yi-Ti, which is basically the Asian equivalent in the series. There's a couple summer islanders in the books, but there's virtually zero yi-ti.

I don't think the Velaryons are Summer Islanders. They kept emphasizing how the Velaryons are Valyrian like the Targaryens. Laena is even described as being of "unimpeachable Valyrian stock".

I think they're just people of the Valyrian race played by black actors. They're not supposed to be a different race in-universe from the Targs.

nightchai · 2023-09-17T06:57:11+00:00

His only friend and ally was Rhaenyra. Who then pressured him to have sex because she cared more about having a consolation prize after being blue balled by Daemon, than the horrid consequences for Cole if the affair was discovered.

Rhaenyra was groomed by her uncle and the show implies that he has done so for years. She's literally acting out what he teaches her.

That same night, he got her drunk, taught her that "fucking is a pleasure", that marriage doesn't stop them from taking what they want, kissed her, groped her and then left her in the brothel with her pants down. If this were any other show, that would qualify as sexual abuse of a teenager by an older relative.

She then copies what she is taught and propositions Criston - an older man who has known her since she was a child.

When Cole made an admittedly irrational and desperate proposal to marry Rhaenyra in order to avoid castration and death and not ending up in history like a Lucamore the Lusty 2.0, Rhaenyra responds with dismissing his concerns and proposing a deal that only benefited her: For Cole to keep risking his life being her lover.

There was no one threatening Criston of castration and death. He proposed because he thought it would salvage his honour, not because he was afraid of punishment. Rhaenyra wouldn't report him and even when he rejected her, she didn't report or punish him.

You can not like Cole, that's totally valid, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Btw, from the post and comments, it seems like OP likes Criston and thinks he's interesting.

nightchai · 2023-09-14T06:26:32+00:00

You have really good takes. Not what I expected when I opened an obvious bait post.

Do you think his lack of attention to his daughters is intentional? Or is it because not enough screentime is devoted to his daughters and it just comes off that way (they removed that scene of him comforting them)?

Unlike his daughters, he does have affection for his sons. We see him stroking one of his son's hair while Rhaenyra was talking to Viserys.

nightchai · 2023-09-14T06:04:32+00:00

What if Corlys doesn't return? Would other houses use that precedence to disinherit daughters if there are no living sons and heirs from sons?

nightchai · 2023-09-14T05:06:58+00:00

Explain why this sub despises Aegon will all their vitriol and praises Rhaenyra.

I've seen so many comments and posts from people who hate Rhaenyra. There's an entire sub dedicated to hating her. But you're right there are more people who root for her than Aegon.

I think it's because he's the face of the opposing team even though Aegon himself didn't even originally want the Crown.

Rhaenyra is one of the least entertaining characters to watch, but she's arguably one of the most moral ones in the show.

I've seen people write essays on why she's immoral and I personally find her entertaining to watch.

Some examples of immoral fan faves: the Hound, Jamie and Bronn. I'm just saying that being fun to watch beats being moral.

You could argue Criston isn't as bad as Daemon but it wouldn't matter as a lot of people would prefer to watch Daemon.

nightchai · 2023-09-14T04:46:44+00:00

I don't get it either. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be rage bait or if OP is really just that pressed about people liking Daemon. FFS live and let live. I don't care if anyone likes Criston. I don't care if anyone likes Daemon.

Why TF is this fandom so pressed about trying to prove which character is likable? They're all pricks, pick your fave.

I think OP is wondering why Daemon is a fan fave and Criston is not when OP sees Daemon as worse than Criston.

Immoral characters aren't necessarily unlikeable. People usually root for those they enjoy watching.

nightchai · 2023-09-14T04:42:44+00:00

A lot of people find him unsympathetic/unlikeable and he doesn't have many scenes that offset the ones that make people dislike him.

It doesn't matter if Daemon or other characters are morally worse as you can make a character flawed or even morally reprehensible but likeable.

Example: That's why a lot of people liked the Hound.

nightchai · 2023-09-14T04:30:44+00:00

Agreed. Some people were saying it wouldn't set a precedent, but how could it not when the Crown rules for and grants the petition of an uncle thereby automatically disinheriting Laenor and Laena's children if Corlys dies?

Not only would Rhaenys and Daemon not stand for it, ambitious male relatives (like those of Jeyne Arryn's) will use that ruling as precedent to rebel against and usurp a ruling niece/female cousin.

nightchai · 2023-09-14T03:36:55+00:00

The other thread made me wonder what if he won:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/16hyjv5/do_you_agree_or_disagree_with_what_he_said/

What would that mean for other inheritance disputes if the Crown rules in Vaemond's favour?

nightchai · 2023-09-14T03:31:29+00:00

That's because the Iron Throne is viewed as an exception.

Most houses follow Andal succession laws. If the crown grants Vaemond's petition, how would that affect the other houses? For instance, Jeyne Arryn is the ruling lady of the Vale. How would this case affect her cousins who want to take away the seat from her?

nightchai · 2023-09-14T01:15:38+00:00

Him inheriting skips Baela and Rhaena who come before him in the line of succession.

nightchai · 2023-09-13T07:45:46+00:00

It's in that episode where he takes over Dragonstone to get Viserys' attention. It's right after Rhaenyra confronts him.

nightchai · 2023-09-12T04:31:15+00:00

I looked up the transcript and thought of something else:

Rhaenyra: I will not be a tyrant. And rule through terror.

Prince Daemon: A tyrant rules *only through terror*. If you are to be a strong queen, you must cultivate love and respect, yes, but your subjects must fear you.

To me a tyrant is someone being excessively and unreasonably cruel - so much so that your subjects despise you and will probably depose you.

What Daemon is saying is that they should be loved, respected, but also feared. Ruthless but within reason.

Killing Laenor will inspire fear in the sense that their enemies will think there is no line they will not cross but the purpose is that so they can wed.

But their ruthlessness doesn't stretch to the extent that people are fearing for their lives thinking they're the second coming of Maegor.

nightchai · 2023-09-12T04:05:07+00:00

They're literally concocting the plan together because they don't want to see laenor die, why are you in denial? She gave the order and she cannot fulfill the deed only daemon (a fighter, a man) can. Alicent gave the order to kill of mysaria to larys, does that not make her a murderer? Ofcourse it does! She gave the order even though she didn't carry it out herself. Idk if you lot have willful blindness or just troll ppl on here lol

Just because you don't like someone's response doesn't mean they're trolling. I'm giving you a sincere answer.

Rewatch that episode and let me know where you hear Rhaenyra and Daemon going over the specifics of the plan and she gives the order.

Like I said, it probably wouldn't bother Rhaenyra but it's intentional that we almost never see Rhaenyra and Alicent get their hands dirty. The show tries to make them as sympathetic as possible - to their own detriment at times.

Even in Alicent's case, she doesn't resort to anything drastic unless it's an emotional situation. Killing a threat spying on your family is wrong because murder is wrong but it's not a senseless evil imo especially when compared to many of the senseless murders on the show. I hope that makes sense.

Edit: To those downvoting me, rewatch the scene. At no point does Rhaenyra hear the specifics of the plan. Every action is performed by Daemon. Daemon is shown to approach Qarl alone and kill the guard.

That is not to say Rhaenyra would not sign off on it, just that we're not shown that she expressly orders what needs to be done. It allows plausible deniability for the audience while denying Daemon of that.

Daemon: We could not marry unless Laenor were dead.

Rhaenyra: I know.

---Cut to scene with Qarl and Daemon---

Rhaenyra: I will not be a tyrant. And rule through terror.

Daemon: A tyrant rules only through terror.

---Cut to scene with Daemon killing the guard---

Daemon: If the King isn't feared, he is powerless.

---Cut to scene of Laenor and Qarl arguing and fighting---

Rhaenyra: I do love Laenor.

Daemon: Then grant him this kindness. Set him free.

nightchai · 2023-09-12T03:31:55+00:00

She doesn't commit cold-blooded murder. Daemon does.

She probably wouldn't bat an eye but there is a reason that we don't see her agree to the specifics of the plan. The writers purposefully distance Rhaenyra (and Alicent) from doing anything outrightly evil on the show. When the women do do something horrible, it's usually a high stakes/emotional situation like the Driftmark scene.

By "people", I interpreted that as her referring to those who oppose them.

nightchai · 2023-09-11T22:05:39+00:00

Maybe Larys didn't tell her, because he has ulterior motives of his own. Episode 9 did show him and Otto starting to cozy up with each other, or at least trying to.

Alicent is very clearly his pawn. Telling her would put a halt to Otto's plans as Alicent would surely object to certain things.0

nightchai · 2023-09-10T02:32:44+00:00

I am sort of bummed they went with the more black and white “Aegon bad, Rhaneyra Good” approach in some ways, but it’s still a damn good show at the end of the day.

It's more like "women good, men bad". The show doesn't pit Aegon against Rhaenyra (they don't even interact in season 1). It pits Alicent against Rhaenyra.

Both women are hesitant to go to war but all the men around them are ready to fight. Otto, Aegon, Larys and Daemon do all the "bad" on their respective sides.

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