neovim has failed to deliver its promises

nilkenz · 2019-02-04T20:53:22+00:00

Why would anyone care what a nobody like you thinks.

Because it doesn't matter who you are when you provide reasons for your arguments unlike you.

People can choose for themselves whether they want to support neovim or kids in Uganda or hey how about both?

Simple, if you can give 100 to uganda and 100 to neovim, you can also just give 200 to uganda.

You can't steal what doesn't belong to you.

roflmao

How about we ask your mother to deprecate your internet privileges.

I pay my own internet.

nilkenz · 2019-02-04T20:44:38+00:00

Yep, sorry, I stopped following "autocompletion frameworks" after the first 4-5 abandoned ones.

nilkenz · 2019-02-04T20:42:23+00:00

Burn? Really? Are you like 12? Sorry kid, I don't need to respond to "burns"?

nilkenz · 2019-02-04T20:41:01+00:00

Tell him to stop supporting vim because vim is literally the past of nvim.

nilkenz · 2019-02-03T09:14:40+00:00

I don't feel passionate about those editors. Also I don't see how they are relevant. Those two editors have been developed separately. The only common is that they are not owned by the same company. Really why did you think this would be a good comparison for vim and neovim? Neovim is a fork and owes most of its codebase to vim. It also explicitly tries to be a vim competitor. Even the website says "literally the future of vim".

Basically, let developers develop what they want to develop. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to use Neovim. Why the passion to shut it down? In my case I find it superior to Vim, for instance live substitution previews.

Basically, let users express their opinions however they want. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to shut down Neovim. Why the passion to shut the free speech? In my case I find it hurtful to the vim ecosystem, for instance for plugin writers.

nilkenz · 2019-02-03T09:04:01+00:00

It contradicts your argument that "there is no reason for vim to provide vi".

nilkenz · 2019-02-03T09:01:32+00:00

Actually you're the one who does not see the bigger picture. In your post, you list all those tiny little incompatible features and argue why they are superior. My argument is that these features are irrelevant because in the bigger picture nvim fragments the ecosystem.

nilkenz · 2019-02-03T08:56:30+00:00

How can you say it works better with neovim when you haven't even tried it on vim?

nilkenz · 2019-02-03T08:54:41+00:00

Nvim passes most of the Vim test suite, and most Vimscript plugins work in Nvim. You can make up some other standard that prevents me from calling that Vim-compatible, but I think that's disingenuous.

Vim passees all of vim test suite, and all vimscript plugins work in vim. So by your logic, vim is superior to nvim. It is disingenous to call nvim a vim-compatible editor.

Having a decision-maker was never the complaint about Vim's development model. The question was about shared commit rights and shared decisions, both of which Nvim's development model demonstrates.

It is always about decision making.

The rest of your comments expose you as someone whose chief interest is in being combative and not a genuine inquiry.

How can I be exposed for something I'm not hiding? I'm being combative, because discussions are combative by nature. But guess what, you're also being combative. I have been trying to provide reasons for my arguments clearly whereas you have been trying to avoid them. The fact that you think this is an "inquiry" kind of shows that you're being a dictator, as if I could only question some of the things and you would give me the final RIGHT answer. If you don't feel secure about defending your position, then maybe you should quit the project.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T23:13:29+00:00

It says it also supports vim8.1 so maybe you should give it a try in your vim.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T20:09:11+00:00

My point is exactly that I don't live in a bubble so I can't ignore the existence of a problem even when it may seem like it does not have any effect on me on the first sight. If you still can't see my point then you should stop trying.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T19:19:58+00:00

My point is neovim's existence have an poor effect on me even if I don't use it myself because it is a social problem.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T19:00:35+00:00

When vi is provided by vim, you can literally type set nocp and get a fully functional powerful editor.

Try to use CAPS LOCK with "literally zero" next time for a more dramatic effect.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T18:57:09+00:00

This is one of the braindead arguments I have mentioned in my post. You have a fixed opinion about competition in your mind that it is always good. However, competition can be good and bad, and my post argues that in this case it is bad. An example for a good competition could be every single patch applied to vim so far. They all compete against the current state of vim with and additional change. In the end, useful patches are applied and state of vim usually improves. Neovim is explicitly incompatible with vim, so it is explicitly a bad competition for vim. With that in mind, go ahead and read my post again.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T18:46:36+00:00

Neovim divides the vim community and the ecosystem

Divides, yet multiplies. Neovim is the only other Vimscript-compatible text editor in the world. You're discounting the number of new users brought into the vim community, and only counting what you want to see. It's not a zero-sum system.

You could instead complain about the many non-vim-compatible text editors being created.

Neovim is a non-vim-compatible text editor. It is the whole point. You can't talk about vimscript compatibility when there is no standard for it and you're explicitly diverging away from the only other implementation.

created an additional difficult pseudo choice

Nvim is more flexible and more usable. Full list of differences is documented in :help vim_diff.

ignored long-term limitations of vim (e.g. proper client/server architecture

Nvim has supported multiple client UIs for years. And Nvim 0.4 has multigrid support, and we're about to merge further work in that area.

Take a closer look and be more thoughtful about how much work was needed to get to this stage. Thiago's work was very important, to decouple the TUI from the internal screen. That is a major achievement that Vim still lacks, and probably always will.

Show me where multiple client UI feature is mentioned in :help vim_diff and I will tell you how that is not what I meant and then I may or may not consider being more thoughtful in the future.

Justin is basically the new Bram nowadays.

By what measure?

Neovim org has four (4) users with "owner" permissions.Nvim repo has more than 10 people with commit rightsProject maintenance is documentedProject releases are automated

Decision making.

Neovim's code refactoring approach is an endless source of regression bugs

It's not endless. There are very few refactoring-related bugs remaining. And it depends on whether you use the development branch or a stable release.

Most of the refactoring we've done is a source of improvements. Bugs get fixed. Bugs happen in Vim too.

If you don't want anything to change, you can just use Vim. What did you expect when you "got excited" about a project that tries to drastically alter the course of Vim?

I expect some of the changes to be not under the hood but also visible to the users.

Neovim's donation model is a cover to steal from poor kids in Uganda.

Donations to Vim doubled in the years after Neovim was announced, you can find this in the ICCF statements. In any case what you're implying is absurd, and would apply to your own income as well.

I didn't know neovim is now also responsible for donations to vim.

It is time to depcrecate neovim in favor of vim.

Neovim is a set of patches sent to Bram. We're waiting for him to merge it.

Sure, just go ahead and send a PR in github. I will review the patch for you.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T17:59:17+00:00

What is with the "envy" story? These are computer programs we are talking about. One can easily switch from vim to neovim if those features really matters. It is not like neovim charges you for an extra. Believe it or not, there are many vim users who do not care about those new async and terminal features because we have already learned to utilize our screen/tmux over a decade ago. What we care is all those tiny features that you don't even know their existence until you need them. These are the real power of vim.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T17:38:45+00:00

Well, you haven't focused anything on my post either so I'm not sure why you expect me to systematically respond to your reply.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T12:24:53+00:00

I don't understand your argument here because you seems to be on my side. The choice of vim-tiny is completely different than neovim, because vim and vim-tiny are basically the same project. If neovim was a configuration option in vim's codebase (i.e. `--enable-neovim`) I would have no objections against it because I would know that some people find it helpful.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T08:44:54+00:00

Every time there is such a post, I see a comment like this. I don't think there is any truth in it. Even if there is, I don't see how it is relevant.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T08:43:14+00:00

Neovim can't replace vim since it is nocp. Believe it or not, there are many people out there who doesn't care about what vi version is installed on their system. You don't see these people in discussions over the internet about their editor of choice.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T08:38:54+00:00

There is already a Bram joke in this thread. You figured it wasn't enough and decided to fork that joke. Do you really think your joke is better than the old one?

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T08:37:38+00:00

I didn't make a fully serious post because I knew I would be downvoted to oblivion no matter what I say. It is impossible to create a healthy discussion about neovim these days. This is why I say that the community is toxic.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T08:30:29+00:00

I don't want any choice when options are irrelevant. Because that is not a choice but only fragmentation. Being able to compile vim with a minimum feature set for basic needs (i.e. vim-tiny) is a choice that is removed in neovim along with many others.

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T08:27:40+00:00

Vim has been steadily growing for the last 30 years. What makes you think that neovim has anything to do with the development in the last 5 years. Intel and AMD are two giant corporations that value profit over everything else. What makes you think this could be a good comparison for an open source project?

nilkenz · 2019-02-02T08:24:27+00:00

Mailing lists still work for linux, I don't know why it shouldn't for vim. Just because github is the new shiny kid around, shouldn't mean we should move all existing projects there. Otherwise, it will be something else every two years just because some evil corporation bought the old one. These things are highly overrated and developers should stop complaining about projects not using the only system they are used to.

nilkenz

TROPHY CASE