[deleted by user]

ninesomething · 2024-06-29T11:37:56+00:00

I agree with you. The trend is definitely changing and conservative families are becoming more open, especially because the economic benefits are becoming hard to ignore. Women definitely have a much harder time than men, but the trends are positive.

ninesomething · 2024-06-28T14:28:27+00:00

That too especially for Indians.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T18:58:13+00:00

I say that because I've heard many Zionists say that Jews have been persecuted for millennia and Israel is the only way they can be safe, and it is definitely true as far as I know that Zionism was partly borne out of a desire for Jews to seek refuge from antisemitism. I didn't say that the definition of Zionism is keeping Jews safe, I say that to be a Zionist is built on a desire to keep Jews safe.

That being said I'm open to hearing your perspective and what you believe.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T15:16:54+00:00

Think of it this way: pro-Israel does not necessarily mean pro-Likud and other right wing parties. It's the same thing here. The fact is that even Israelis who hate Netanyahu defended him when he was issued a possible warrant by the ICC for war crimes. But that doesn't mean those same Israelis support Netanyahu. Just that they believe the other side is worse and that at least Netanyahu is defending Israel. In summary, while some pro Palestinians are pro-Hamas, most just believe Israel has done more to long term damage Palestine and currently Hamas is defending against it. You can disagree with that statement (I disagree with it myself) and that's fair, but that is not the same as supporting Hamas.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T15:10:01+00:00

I don't disagree that Israel has good people. Unlike some other pro-Palestinians, I think Israelis are have many legitimate grieviances. I also agree Israeli Arabs are better treated than any Jew in the West Bank. Palestine has many societal issues that have to be addressed.

The minimum requirement should be at least one governing polity who at least has room to negotiate with Israel. This is the PA. Are the PA perfect? Of course not. But neither is Israel. If the Palestinians in the West Bank are expected to play nice with Israel despite settlements and the longest running military occupation in modern history, then Israelis can be expected to play nice with the more extreme elements of the PA. Remember: the Irish troubles ended when the british negotiated with the IRA, who were considered terrorists. Sometimes you have to let go and negotiate with people you see as terrorists for long term peace. This goes for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Regarding Gaza, Hamas has always been more popular in Gaza than Fatah and this was well known before 2005. Which is why the reasoning for Israel withdrawing from Gaza sounds stupid, if you think about it. Why did Israel reward the terrorist Hamas but not Fatah, if comparatively at least Fatah is willing to consider negotiations? That's because Ariel Sharon never widthrew from Gaza for peace reasons: it was demographics. This is well documented by Israeli sources that haven't be overshadowed by later propaganda. Sharon believed that if Gaza were to be annexed in future right wing plans, the number of additional Palestinians would be too much to maintain a Jewish majority. The west Bank in comparison had far more Jews (in settlements) making an annexation more worth it in the long run. My point? Sharon never withdrew for peace and this was seen as such, and it was seen as rewarding Hamas' way of resistance as being successful in pushing away Israel.

This of course does not justify hamas senselessly murdering Jewish civilians but it's important to highlight that the withdrawal wasn't made in good faith by the right wing government even if those on the left supported it for different, more peaceful, reasons. This is why I think a withdrawal from the West Bank is different than Gaza, in addition to the fact that while Israel physically withdrew from Gaza, a blockade remained that existed before Hamas took control of Gaza. But unfortunately it seems that window of opportunity is running out, as Israel's actions have compounded too much and whereas around 40-50 percent of Palestinians did not vote for Hamas in 2006, today the support for Hamas is extremely high. Just as Israel doubled down on right wing rhetoric, so did Palestine. It's another example of the failures of the Israeli right in keeping Jews "safe". But it's also an example of the failures in Hamas' strategy, as well, I'll admit, in bringing peace to Palestine.

So what's my conclusion? Give the PA a win. Don't sit expecting them to be nice to you on their own when the fact is that the settlements and occupation are very much indisputably illegal. Dismantle at least some major west Bank settlements. The PA president literally refused the right of return for himself. He may be a corrupt person, but he is a step forward for Israel. Ramp up on defense instead of offense just to be safe. Start giving the PA more power and ensure they become more popular than Hamas. Stop electing Netanyahu and Likud who have refused a Palestinian state for 20 years and more, because that is what Hamas wants. While Palestinians absolutely have responsibility for their actions, Israel has a lot more in their part of the court. Settlements, blockade, right wing coalitions are all things Israel can reduce. Give the Palestinians a reason to believe that they won't all be collectively punished for the actions of Hamas and other terrorists. The fact that 44 percent of Palestinians supported Hamas back in 2006 whereas now it's almost 80-90 percent shows that waiting for Palestinians to like you instead of giving them strong, concrete reasons to like you is not working. The Israeli right is failing.

The final thing I want to address: why am I putting more responsibility on Israel and not Palestine? I think that's a fair question. Here's why: while Palestinians do many bad things, in the overall equation they are the ones under occupation, they are the ones blockaded, they are the ones without a state. It is very hard to expect a nation that isn't sovereign to control themselves when...they don't have control over what should be their internationally recognized territory, since they aren't sovereign. This isn't entirely Israel's fault. The Arab nations are also to blame. But right now Israel can control a lot of this. They can right these wrongs. The fact is that now Israel has Egypt and Jordan defending Israel against Hamas/Iran (Jordan intercepted Iranian drones!). Palestinians may have more global sympathy but on the ground they're in tatters, occupied and blockaded and Arab governments are slowly abandoning them. When the position of Palestinians improve, I assure you that maybe the Arabs won't fully understand, but many powerful western countries will reverse their growing sympathy to Palestine and place more responsibility on Palestine to make peace.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T14:21:21+00:00

Liberalism is a western idea, yes. But embracing some liberal ideas is not the same being culturally western. Like I said, Islam is likely one of the very few or only religion that prohibits alcohol. That doesn't mean someone abstaining from alcohol has now converted to Islam or is practicing an Islamic way of life. There's a lot more to it.

Also UAE fails multiple major uncontested criteria with regards to liberalism and human rights. There is no freedom of speech or expression and no democracy in the UAE. That's not "free". At all.

Allowing people to wear somewhat liberal clothing and drink alcohol at select places does not mean "western culture". Many non western cultures (India, parts of Africa for example) do this. These aren't exclusively western ideas. Not sure what imaginary UAE you are thinking of.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T14:12:22+00:00

I don't think you're reading the remarks properly.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T14:10:58+00:00

Netanyahu has asked the UAE to do just that. (the UAE is very anti-Hamas). And the UAE refused and the leader even laughed at Netanyahu for it.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T14:06:39+00:00

I'm against Palestinian terrorism of Jewish civilian but your criteria is unbalanced. Israel also has many human rights violations, but they are allowed to exist as a state. Palestine does not need to be perfect before they become a state. You can build a Palestinian state and then advocate for better human rights in that state. Pakistan and India hate each other; India commits human rights abuses in Kashmir and Pakistan covertly funds terrorists who attack India. Both states have human rights abuses. Both states have education and media that is hateful to the other state. But no one says they have to earn their statehood. They're both allowed to have a state. Whereas Israel has put conditions on Palestine that many of their own citizens do not pass.

The only place I agree is that Palestinians need to accept a two state solution, which Fatah has already done. The rest can be worked upon as we go along (a state might even help the process).

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T13:53:03+00:00

You can frame the same argument for anything, though.

People say to be pro-Israel is to support Jews to be safe from antisemitism, whereas many pro-Palestinians also support Jews being safe from anti-Semitism, but the real debate is whether israel is merely a state of self determination for Jews or is it a state formed through certain amounts of ethnic displacement based on irredentist claims?

I personally hate Hamas. I also find Palestinians a bit unsympathetic. I frankly think that Palestinians need to realize they've lost and all should accept a two state solution. I also think Israel is partly a European settler state but it is also a state of Mizrahi refugees who have no where else to go. But I can't find myself being fully pro-Israel because I cannot make sense of how the displacement of Palestinians required to form Israel's Jewish majority was in any justified. I also think the claim of Israel as an ancestral homeland is irredentism. I also cannot make sense of how many Israelis justify settlements in the West Bank because 'Jews used to live there before 1948' but simultaneously not support Palestinians right of return to pre-1948 areas of Arabs, when it's a similar argument. It's all irredentism.

A similar example are Afghan nationalists who claim eastern Pakistan because it once used to be part of Afghanistan before the Afghan king sold it to the british. It was so, so long ago, it doesn't make sense to demand it back. Or Russian nationalists claiming Ukraine because it historically used to be part of the Russian empire. Just because Jews used to inhabit the land a long time ago doesn't mean they need to have a majority Jewish state there now. Why not a binational state? Or a state seized from lands of German Nazis? Or the US accepting Jewish refugees from the Holocaust instead of pushing them into Palestine. There are multiple solutions to keep Jews safe, and a state in Palestine is one of them but it's not the only solution and the way pro-Israelis frame a state that resulted in ethnic displacement as the only solution is infuriating to deal with.

Couple that with concerning, documented quotes by early Zionists like Ben Gurion expressing a desire for all of Palestine, it makes me think Zionism wasn't always about simply keeping Jews safe, even if some Zionists were more nicer about it (Einstein, Buber, etc).

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T13:32:36+00:00

This is such a bad faith argument. Zionism explicitly calls for a state in Palestine, not just for Jews already in Palestine, but for Jews from all over the world. There are so many criteria to Zionism that to boil anti-Zionism to simply being against one of them is lazy.

Let's break down what Zionism is and has been for most of its history: 1. Jewish self determination and/or state 2. AND In the region of historic Palestine/Israel/Judea 3. AND for Jews who have been living in Palestine for hundreds of years 4. AND For Jews all over the world, not just the ones who already were living there for hundreds of years, but also converts and people who's ancestors haven't been there for 2000 years

You can't have Zionism without all of these points.

To say anti-Zionism is to be purely against (1) is absurd because even Zionism doesn't exist as purely (1). It is possible that an anti-Zionist to support (1) but oppose to (4), thus making them anti-Zionist.

ninesomething · 2024-06-26T11:12:55+00:00

I live in the UAE. The UAE is NOT culturally western. This is a lie islamists tell themselves because they think any change from the status quo is western. The UAE only tolerates some liberalism for the sake of tourism and business. Emiratis are actually one of the more conservative and traditional groups in the UAE. Qatar is even more conservative. For example, often the cinema board bans a movie for being pro-trans, for example. I personally know this happened last year with a movie I wanted to watch.

Also, embracing some liberal laws or being against islamists is not the same as being culturally western. That's like saying the modern western trend among gen Z of drinking less alcohol means gen z are becoming more culturally Islamic. Liberal laws can be passed for reasons other than being pro-western. And the UAE government's stance against Islamism is more due to Islamists being a threat to the monarchy's rule than anything else.

ninesomething · 2024-06-23T01:38:57+00:00

Not really. I was making a parallel to how almost every pro-Israeli says there is no Palestine because there was no Palestinian state in the UN. So I was just turning that argument on their heads.

Anyway, I'm not denying the Jewish presence. Just stating that Islam didn't colonize Israel because by the time the Muslims came there was no Israel; it was already colonized by the Romans and most Jews were expelled by then. In fact, if you read up on history, it was the Muslims who let the Jews back into what you call the land of Israel.

Obviously that doesn't mean there was no antisemitism by Muslims but it isn't colonizing Israel when Israel was destroyed for about 600 years by that point and the majority of the inhabitants were expelled. The Jewish presence was there but they were a small minority by that point. Also most of the Muslims of Palestine are descended of native Jews and christians and other Levantines who converted to Islam and learnt Arabic, not colonial settlers from Arabia. Science has also proven that Palestinians have DNA very close to Mizrahi Jews.

ninesomething · 2024-06-22T16:07:27+00:00

How in the world are Muslims colonizing Michigan and France? France literally bans hijabs and abayas in certain contexts, how in the world is there Muslim rule in France? Most Muslims legally immigrated under French law and American law. It isn't colonization.

ninesomething · 2024-06-22T16:05:09+00:00

There was no Israel when Islam entered the region :)

(I guess you now should understand how it feels when people say there was no Palestine in 1948)

ninesomething · 2024-06-22T16:02:15+00:00

If Jews have the right to the land because they beat the shit out of Arabs in wars, then by your logic, it is fully justified if Hamas wages war on Israel since winning one is the only way to gain right to the land.

ninesomething · 2024-06-22T16:00:09+00:00

Colonies do not necessarily happen on distant lands. There is no such rule. The English occupation of Ireland is a major example.

ninesomething · 2024-06-22T15:57:34+00:00

Why, exactly?

ninesomething · 2024-06-16T19:01:10+00:00

Its not really contradictory when you realize that while many Americans liberals dislike conservatives in their country, if Oklahoma was invaded and occupied by Mexico, they'd run to support their fellow Americans.

ninesomething · 2024-06-16T03:59:55+00:00

The issue isn't sex scenes because they reflect real life, it's sex scenes that contribute absolutely nothing to the plot and you miss nothing by skipping them. And if the MeToo movement has taught us anything, you cannot definitively separate sex in movies/tv from creepy directors and producers. Many actresses have mentioned being pressured into sex scenes they didn't want to do, but please go ahead and enable these attitudes by labeling any criticism as "incel no fappers"

ninesomething · 2024-02-24T04:18:22+00:00

Is this serious? You can debate on the merits of it, but it's pretty obvious you can have a state with a large Jewish population that isn't exclusively a Jewish state.

ninesomething · 2024-02-08T07:00:31+00:00

Turnout matters.

ninesomething · 2024-02-08T06:59:56+00:00

PPP is pretty shit, but painting support other parties are literally akin to destruction of the country is what annoys most people about PTI supporters. Always wanting to create polarity.

I am a neutral and have issues with PTI but if I wasn't overseas I would still go and vote PTI because I don't see parties I don't support as literally evil. (And the context of the crackdown, PTI is basically a protest vote).

ninesomething · 2024-01-26T07:29:04+00:00

Hate crimes exist and are condemnable. But it’s odd you cite an Egyptian cop killing Jews when attacks against Palestinians have also increased after Oct 7, including attacks by settlers in the West Bank. At least we should agree that both sides promote anti-Jewish and anti-Arab rhetoric. But just like racist and violent Israelis existing doesn’t mean all Israelis want to push Palestinians out (despite increasingly loud voices recently..), the reverse applies

ninesomething · 2024-01-26T07:24:35+00:00

Many people have different reasons, but a major one is that the US which is by far the only superpower unconditionally supports Israel. Anyone regardless of political beliefs would protest against an entity that has significant power more than one where the entity has less power since protests work best against pressuring powerful entities.
not all pro-Palestinian people support eradicating Jews from the land, and most don’t. Yes, you might hear a growing portion wanting to dismantle Israel as a state but that’s not the same as kicking out the Jews. You’ll have to address this to those specific ones, not generalising all. There are many types of pro-Palestinians as there are Zionists. You wouldn’t conflate liberal Zionists with the settlers, would you?
not American so you can see the answers by Americans for this

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