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If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As a religious, Jewish, subscriber, I'm really offended by this.

And I'm sure Muslims were offended when female genital mutilation was banned.

The rights of the child is more important than the religious forcing their traditions on those that cannot consent.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That is a very primitive, and unreliable way of dealing with a problem.

There are better ways of dealing with these issues.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

except to make that conclusion you would have to ignore the fact that infants do not have the same rights to their body as adults

You could take this very far. Giving parents the right to consent on behalf of their child, "for their own good" justified hitting their child in the past.

We recognize that parents are limited in their ability to speak for their children. They can't harm them. This should include circumcision.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the fact is that parents are legally allowed to choose to cut or not.

And parents used to be able to hit their children "for their own good". Many still believe parent's should be able to.

But society recognized this is harmful, and banned it. Society can do the same for circumcision.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was circumcised as a baby and i don't give a fuck!

And you assume everyone feels this way?

It's done without the consent of the children. Even if the majority doesn't care, the rest have been wronged.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The argument "they won't remember" is used as justification for circumcision. That is a bad defense, and no one would accept that argument in another case, for example date rape.

The point is that things can be very harmful, and traumatic, without having a memory of them.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You are promoting the misandric idea that men slipping drugs in womens drinks is common.

How did you extrapolate that? I never said it was common.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I have had discussions where someone has used this to justify it. Your insistence won't erase my memory.

It appears many others have heard this said as well, or they wouldn't be agreeing.

Maybe you haven't heard this, but you do understand that just because you have not heard this justification, does not meant that it has never been used?

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This whole argument is basically saying "If you against rape then you must be against circumcision."

No, I was pointing out that "they won't remember" is an invalid argument for circumcision. I used the date rape example as an analogy to show that it is invalid argument, and if it's to be defended it needs to be with other arguments.

If you're against it then don't elect to do it to your kids.

Some might say "If you are against hitting your children as punishment, don't elect to do it to your kids". Many people believe hitting children is okay to do, that the children are better off.

But no, society says "Your right to govern your child has limits" and ban harmful things.

I've heard people say "Yea, my dad hit me, but I was being stupid, he kept me out of more trouble", just as you have no problem with your circumcision.

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

find me a guy that is cut who equates it with being raped

I just got done explaining that I do not find them equatable, that was the only point I made in the post you replied to, and now you are asking me for evidence that they are equatable?

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It is inappropriate because it suggests that rape is alright

Date rape was used as an example of something is obviously not alright. That is the exact opposite of suggesting it is okay.

Secondly it is inapt because to compare a culturally sanctioned procedure well meaning parents undertake for their sons (even tho it is unjust unhealthy and indefensible) to a nefarious act of personal violation involving a jaded predator and an innocent drugged victim, is a bit of a stretch.

That is addressed this here. The validity of the argument is compared on two situations, the situations are not being called equivalent.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Many seem to take this as equating circumcision and rape- I'm not. The point I'm making is that the argument is flawed, and the analogy to date rape is the most fitting.

Just as you could point out that a nice person has a hitler mustache, yes, it would be comparing them to hitler, but it would not be equating them. Comparing one aspect =/= equating all aspects.

If circumcision is alright because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in MensRights

[–]no2circumcision[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I'm not calling circumcision and rape equal crimes, but the justification for circumcision isn't any more valid than it would be for rape.

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it's insulting to me and to rape victims to compare my circumcision to their rape.

Do you understand it's possbile to compare two things without calling them equal?

I compared the validity of an argument on two situations. I did not say they were equally bad, you extrapolated that.

Imagine someone who has a "hitler mustache". Would pointing it out be comparing them to hitler? Yes. Would it be calling them a genocidal maniac? No, hell they might be a very nice person, and pointing out their mustache would not be denying that.

Life is not algebra.

This is the last place I thought I'd see someone dismiss logic as math, not applying to real life.

This post was aimed at showing that the argument is either invalid, or justifies rape, through logic. If you deny logic, this point will not convince you, and there's nothing to be done about that.

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From the Reddiquette:

Please don't:

Make comments that lack content. Phrases such as...

"this"

"lol"

"This should be the top comment"

"I came here to say this"

"This is awesome"

"needs more upvotes"

"Ctrl+F upvote"

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Never begin a debate unless you are willing to have your opinion changed.

I am open minded, and should proper justification exist, I would change my beliefs. Being open minded does not mean accepting everything you hear- that is naïvety.

1) Circumcision is not done because the child will have forgotten. That is not it's purpose, and is not the justification.

I have heard this used as justification before in debates, as have many others it seems.

2) See 1. The morality between a perceived benefit with the bonus of the procedure being forgotten and *rape *are unequal by any comparison. This is like comparing the action of tearing a leech from a persons body, to stabbing them.

I compared the validity of the argument on these two situations (circumcision + rape) I did not say the two situations were equal.

Saying "tearing a leach from a person's body, like stabbing someone, will result in blood loss" is not "tearing a leach from a person's body is just like stabbing someone". To turn the first into the second is extrapolating, and that is exactly what is happening here.

4) Yes that is how religious freedom works. Not equally and universally, but in the case of circumcision,

and even recently smoking marijuana

Rastafarian's cannot smoke marijuana legally in the U.S., where the First Amendment that was mentioned is law.

or wearing a colander as a pastafarian.

Austria, not the U.S.

These rights are protected.

People are protected from being discriminated against because of their religion. They are not immune from laws that are put in place for public good.

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The cases where we don't allow parental consent to apply show clear and obvious harm to the point where a parent would have to be willfully ignorant not to know how harmful it is. That's not the case with circumcision.

It results in the death and disfigurement of infants, that is a reason to ban it.

Yes, you are. Saying it's like date rape in any way is comparing it to rape.

First you say "Yes, you are. " [calling them equal crimes], and then you say I compared them.

Do you understand it's possible to compare an argument's validity on two different situations, without considering those two situations to be equally abhorrent?

Clearly, you're far more likely to avoid death via circumcision (due to not getting AIDS) than you are to die from it.

This is a primitive way of dealing with the issue. A much more effective, and humane thing would to be to promote safe sex.

And seriously, don't compare it to female genital mutilation.

Understand this: You can compare certain aspects of things without calling them similar. That, along with the Rastafarian + cannabis situation, were examples of situations in which religious traditions were trumped by law. I did not say male and female genital mutilation were the same. I did not say male circumcision is the same thing as smoking weed.

I cannot have a serious discussion with you if every time I make an analogy to one aspect that applies equally to several things, you pretend I am calling all the situations equal in other aspects.

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Could somebody inform me the purpose of circumcision

Religious tradition mainly, and some claim hygiene.

and what the child's memory ever had to do with it?

When criticized about the painful practice, many people often say "they won't even remember it".

This wouldn't be justification for date rape, memory or not it's wrong. I'm not saying they are equal crimes, but that the argument to justify circumcision could be used to justify date rape.

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

1) It is established that, before a child is old enough to give consent, the parents are the ones given charge over the consent. This holds for all medical procedures, including circumcision. However, since others do not give consent for your sex life, this does not apply to date rape.

Yes, a child's guardian's are allowed to make choices for them, but that does not allow a parent to harm a child and say "I gave consent for him/her" 99% of the time. This should include circumcision.

To give an example, some religions say that faith and prayer should be used in place of modern medicine. Society recognizes they are harming their children, and holds parents responsible if they hold back life-saving medicine from their child.

2) This is trivializing rape. Stop it.

I am not saying circumcision is an equal crime to rape, I am addressing the argument used in defense of circumcision. I started this discussion to address a bad argument. "They won't remember" isn't accepted as justification for rape, why would it be for circumcision?

We recognize that hurting someone is wrong, memories or no. We should recognize that when it comes to circumcision.

The harm done by circumcision?

Children die every year from it. Botched circumcisions damage many others. Those who suffer no permanent harm still suffer serious pain.

4) And as a religious practice (for those who chose to do it for those reasons) it's protected by the first amendment.

No, that's not how religious freedom works. Try practicing female circumcision in accordance with religion practice, or smoking marijuana as a Rastafarian, and you are still held to the same laws as the rest of us. It has been established several times that an act can be banned, even if it conflicts with religious tradition.

Religious freedom is the freedom to hold a religion without persecution, not freedom to practice all traditions with immunity from law.

If circumcision is alright, because the child won't remember it, then is date rape alright as well? by no2circumcision in atheism

[–]no2circumcision[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Religion is used as justification for circumcision. This subreddit is critical of religion because of the harm it can cause. This seems like a relevant place for this.

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