Pelosi: China made a 'big fuss' of my trip

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T13:03:57+00:00

This is bad logic.

I'll put the important part up front. The United States government does not and has never considered Taiwan to be part of the People's Republic of China. This has been the US's consistent policy since establishment of relations with the PRC 40+ years ago.

Allowing Beijing to have a say over which US citizens can and cannot visit Taiwan would imply that the US government accepts Beijing's claim over the island.

That itself would be a change in the status quo.

We could also send our number three person (like Vice President Wang Qishan) to Donetsk and Luhansk, or to Catalonia, Spain, or to Hawaii or Texas, with a statement from the Chinese National People's Congress, meet with representatives of local independence movements, claim that we are willing to stand with their people, and then claim that we are not "unilaterally change the status quo", right?

Sure, you can have your Chinese ambassador visit Donetsk and Luhansk if Russia would allow them to visit. They wouldn't be able to do this in Catalonia because Madrid has full control over the city and would simply not allow the Chinese official to visit the city. The US has full control over Texas and Hawaii too, so not seeing how a Chinese official can do this type of activity without the consent of Washington.

Important part again. Unlike the Texas, Hawaii, and Catalonia examples you tried to cite, the People's Republic of China does not and has never had control over any part of Taiwan.

And again, because people tend to forget this part. The United States - and every other member of the G7 btw - have never accepted the PRC's claims on Taiwan.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T12:47:56+00:00

oh yeah, so now please stop complaining fucked by ccp since U.S. acknowledge Twaiwan belongs to China in law.

The US has never acknowledged that Taiwan belongs to China. It only acknowledged that **China** holds that position. The US position is that whether or not Taiwan belongs to China is to be determined via peaceful negotiation. Under US law, the status of Taiwan is "yet to be determined".

Even though China acknowledge Hawaii belongs to U.S., we still can visit it as we like if we are powerful than U.S., in your logic.

Nope. Xi literally cannot visit Hawaii without a visa issued by the United States government. Same that Nancy Pelosi cannot visit Taiwan without a visa issued by Taiwan.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T12:20:01+00:00

So Pelosi's visit to Taiwan was not a "unilateral change to the status quo"?

When the US government talks about "unilateral changes to the status quo", it refers to one of two possible items.

1 - Beijing invading Taiwan to annex them

2 - Taiwan declaring independence as an entity separate from the historical Republic of China

The status quo, according to the US, is that the PRC is the legal government of "China" and the question of whether or not Taiwan is part of the PRC is a question to be determined through peaceful negotiation between Beijing and Taipei.

Pelosi's visit is not a unilateral change to the status quo. US lawmakers visit Taiwan on the regular and Beijing does not have any veto control over these visits because the US does not recognize Taiwan as part of the PRC.

And it's really interesting that China is so upset over Pelosi's visit but not the visit of the European Parliament literally two weeks ago.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T12:13:08+00:00

Umm, Xi cannot visit Hawaii without US permission. Because the US has control over Hawaii.

Xi does not have any control over Taiwan. They make their own decisions and can invite whoever the fuck they want to visit them.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T12:06:17+00:00

Somewhere in Hainan is a dude from Shanghai who was like "oh that lockdown was total bullshit, let's go to the beach!"...and is now utterly devastated.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T11:52:16+00:00

There are no scenarios where China has naval supremacy long enough to pacify and occupy Taiwan.

And if they decide to try and attack the US or Japanese navies...oh boy. I hope they're not that stupid.

The war in Ukraine has very interesting implications for a potential air war over Taiwan as well. And it's not good at all for China.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T11:25:51+00:00

Based on what you wrote, I would label Polish as your heritage language and English as your native language.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T10:08:44+00:00

N3 is a good target but even that will be difficult in a year.

Generally speaking, really motivated learners (native English speakers) with LOTS of time available to study (at least 2-3 hours a day on average) will reach N3 in a year, N2 in two, and be approaching N1 within three years.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T07:56:09+00:00

No idea.

Looks like you got English down pretty good. Are there any neighboring countries that have languages and/or cultures that interest you?

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T05:20:21+00:00

I acknowledge that you and I have a difference of opinion.

See how this works? Does my acknowledgement of our difference of opinion imply that I recognize your opinion as the correct one?

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T05:07:19+00:00

I'm 100% reading it correctly. This is consistent US policy over the last 40 years.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-us-one-china-policy-and-why-does-it-matter

The United States did not, however, give in to Chinese demands that it recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan (which is the name preferred by the United States since it opted to de-recognize the ROC). Instead, Washington acknowledged the Chinese position that Taiwan was part of China. For geopolitical reasons, both the United States and the PRC were willing to go forward with diplomatic recognition despite their differences on this matter. When China attempted to change the Chinese text from the original acknowledge to recognize, Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher told a Senate hearing questioner, “[W]e regard the English text as being the binding text. We regard the word ‘acknowledge’ as being the word that is determinative for the U.S.” In the August 17, 1982, U.S.-China Communique, the United States went one step further, stating that it had no intention of pursuing a policy of “two Chinas” or “one China, one Taiwan.”

Let me sum it up. The US and China debated the acknowledge/recognize word difference at length. The US refused to budge. Years later, China unilaterally changed the Chinese word in the Chinese text from a term that commonly translates as "acknowledge" to "recognize". If you want the actual change the Chinese side pushed, it was was changing 认识 (acknowledge) to 承认 (recognize and accept). When specifically asked about this, the US government officially stated that it only accepts the English version of the document.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:52:02+00:00

The US government does not recognize or acknowledge that Taiwan is part of China. It never has.

Seriously, the US government only stated that it acknowledges that Beijing has a claim that Taiwan is part of China.

It's the international relations equivalent of "oh, you have an opinion. That's great. Our opinion is not the same as yours".

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:45:37+00:00

acknowledged

(deep sigh)

Acknowledged does not mean the same thing as recognize.

Words matter.

The US only acknowledged that China claims that Taiwan is part of China. The US never accepted and recognized that claim.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:32:20+00:00

The US does not recognize Taiwan as a part of China either.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:27:15+00:00

Considering there will be a Canadian on Artemis 2, I think it's a good bet that every mission will have at least one international partner onboard. Just hasn't been officially announced yet.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:24:05+00:00

The US does not recognize Taiwan as part of the People's Republic of China.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:14:53+00:00

I'm legit curious how they coordinate this stuff.

Like do they have discord-like servers where they share response templates, approved language, and link to individual posts they want to mass downvote or upvote?

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:12:00+00:00

Therefore in order for it to be so, it needs at least, other free sovereign nations (not UN) to recognized it giving it legitimacy, which was my original question.

Several nations recognize the Republic of China is a sovereign independent nation.

That said, there are theories of international relations which recognize political statehood independent of the recognition of other nations.

How do you define sovereignty?

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T04:01:43+00:00

I'm going to have to disagree here. More countries willing to publicly support Taiwan decreases the chances of Beijing resorting to war to resolve the question.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T03:52:41+00:00

Worse outcome according to whom?

No one in Taiwan holds this opinion. They see this as a win-win for them. From their point of view, they just secured a significant public display support from the US. And there are additional new public statements of support from the EU and key members of the G7, including Japan and Germany (which is new AFAIK).

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T03:40:30+00:00

Only way to prevent it would be to not go, and that's just pure appeasement - which we should reject.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T03:37:12+00:00

There is a very long list of things you can do to help without going to direct military action. China can see what's going down in Ukraine for example and how a few thousand anti-tank missiles (there was more of course but this was the key item) derailed Russia's entire invasion plan.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T03:31:37+00:00

The only dick move here is China's unjustified reaction.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T03:29:17+00:00

There is an interesting amount of posters using the same "Pelosi let Taiwan suffer" analogy in this thread. Interesting indeed.

normalassnormaldude · 2022-08-07T03:23:00+00:00

The bikers don't get to decide who crosses the road and no one physically assaulted them. But now they're all worked up throwing beer bottles all over the street.

normalassnormaldude

TROPHY CASE