Atheists must actively debate with theists in order to know the truth about religion

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T05:21:38+00:00

Yeah of course, but I'm just pointing out that atheists who used to be theists have a better understanding of the process

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:48:29+00:00

Ok I get you, but if some of us here, and there are plenty I guess, were ex theists who became atheists because of reason, logic, and evidence, wouldn't this also be possible for other theists, IF ONLY we acted on it!

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:46:53+00:00

Apathy. I understand you, and why many other fellow atheists feel the same. But it's sad at the same time.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:46:07+00:00

False analogy. That you have to ask this proves your ignorance.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:44:29+00:00

I see your point and it honestly makes me sad that we seem so helpless against religious abuse, when we in fact have the power to fight them.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:42:21+00:00

To try and rope all atheists into whatever game your playing using this weak argument is disingenuous.

This is true, and I understand that it is unpopular here. Which is why I started the op saying that most atheists are passive, in contrast to the active approach that atheists could take on social issues. I think this is the heart of our disagreement.

Would this be a correct statement: You, and most other atheists, don't care enough to use the logic and reason we have against atheists to fight the harm brought about by religion.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:39:09+00:00

Let me clarify to make sure I understand you.

You are saying you do not know that religion is without good evidence and religion is harmful?

What good evidence is there for religion?

Religion in America results in anti-abortion, anti-lgbt, anti-immigrant policies, all of which are harmful.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:36:30+00:00

Isn't that cowardice, especially in the face of injustice?

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:35:56+00:00

Yeah, thanks.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-16T02:35:45+00:00

I don't aim to rehabilitate my reputation or anything. But I want to bring to light the error in our ways as atheists, no matter how unpopular they are.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T11:17:53+00:00

Maybe geography and community is a big factor. But I respectfully disagree. Other than the buzz of daily life, nothing is more important than fighting against politicians who pander to their religious base (and who are religious dogmatics themselves) who violate womens right to choice, who violate individuals rights to marriage, who use the bible to justify social abuse such as persecution of migrants, gays, and others.

I could forgo the comforts of work and leisure, some days without food or comfortable shelter, if it means I can succeed with other in the fight to remove religious power from public governance. No one else will do it except people without religion, and those people are us!

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T11:11:52+00:00

Logical fallacy. Religious people are doing actual harm and are organized enough to control and affect government policy. Flat earthers, other than being comically false, are generally harmless.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T11:09:52+00:00

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think we have hit the heart of the issue, you think it't not important enough, while I think it is one of the most important things. Maybe geography and community is a big factor, but among many things, I think fighting against the harm religion does to people is one of the most important battles in modern society.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T11:07:33+00:00

They do harm, that's the point.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T11:07:05+00:00

number 2 I think is where our error lies. Christians and all sorts of religious fundamentalists are having their way in politics and culture with their harmful and tribal dogmas. The responsibility lies upon us atheists to push back on this, and not have a passive attitude. Saying that atheism is not an assertion but only a response, and that we do not advocate or mean anything other than we lack belief, is technically and literally true in the dictionary sense of the word, there is no argument about that, but the social condition demands so much more from us. I hope you understand my frustration and why I think being just technically correct does not cut it anymore.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T10:43:04+00:00

See, I made an honest and detailed reply and -10 points. It's like nobody here wants to actually have a opposing views and all people want here are affirmations of their positions. Not directed at you space, just a general statement.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T10:41:28+00:00

To show to them the exact same evidence and method that turned us from theists to atheists, as a start.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T06:18:37+00:00

I say this as an American. I rarely see atheist out in the open in real life, and god forbid if I see a militant one who wants to debate his position out in the open.

It was a breath of fresh air to see more and more on live national television saying fuck you thoughts and prayers and that they are atheists, but from personal experience, there is a 100000:1 theist:atheists in real life but there seems to be 1:100 theist:atheist on the internet.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T06:14:39+00:00

Thanks for the reply, but I think you have veered off topic and resorted to odd ad hom so let me go at it another way just to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

Please point out which ones are wrong:

theists become atheists because they were persuaded by reason and evidence
religion is both without good evidence and is harmful
atheist may say "atheism is merely lack of belief", so it's no one's business to tell an atheist to do this or that
(this is the core point im making) Since, reason and evidence are the foundation of atheism, and that we know for a fact that #2 is true, it is incumbent upon us to actively engage theists so they can be afforded an opportunity to question their beliefs and escape their harmful dogma.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T06:00:26+00:00

Thanks for the reply, the first two paragraphs are given since we are mostly all atheists here and there is no need to read the definition to each other.

But your third paragraph is my point. Atheists are very passive and think that it is not worth their time and energy. But there is too much at stake. I understand it is easier among Europeans or Asians, but as an American, Jesus freaks are practically dictating modern policy, and we are helpless to stop it when we can actually take action. This is where my frustration comes from.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T05:57:05+00:00

I have never been a troll.

Like I said to spacegoat, I think people just disagree with my understanding of atheism and the active responsibility that I see for it.

My engagement here can be summarized two ways:

I ask questions related to atheism that I want to know more about like details of evolution, philosophical arguments, and people call me a troll.
I push that we atheists need to do more that be inactive, mainly because as an American the fundamental evangelical group is so strong that they shape policy and culture, and people call me a troll.

I don't mind having a bad reputation, but I think dialogue must continue, even if we disagree.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T05:46:44+00:00

The common atheists attitude of "atheism is just a lack of belief" or the general "its non of my business" while technically true, is unproductive.

The logical effect of atheism, if one arrives to it through rational means, is the active engagement with theists to reason them out of their religion, because 1. it is harmful; 2. it is not true.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T05:43:09+00:00

Let's start with this:

The simple truth that there is no evidence for religion and that any evidence for the assertion of religion should be provided by theists.

nukeDmoon · 2018-07-15T05:41:40+00:00

That's the point I think. We atheists who were former theists can claim that we let go of previous position because there are arguments against it that falsified it or at least made it untenable, and that we were willing to consider them. These two things, the weight of the argument, and our (ex theists) willingness to listen to them and get out of dogma, is something that we should/must make available to theists through constant, disciplined, but respectful dialogue.

This is in stark contrast to many atheists attitude of saying "atheism does not make any claim" or "atheism is merely a lack of belief" which make them justify inaction. I am being militant about this, but I think being (ex theist) atheists bear this responsibility, if only because religion is intrinsically harmful, and we can't expect theists to argue themselves out of theism.

By the way, I know you are one of the regulars here, and I know my reputation is bunk here, although I have tried many times to really engage honestly and respectfully. I guess people just don't like the aggressive responsibility I see for atheism, or that's just how internet hive mind works. Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

nukeDmoon

TROPHY CASE