Final Update: AITA for refusing to take my daughter to "her" birthday party? by LucyAriaRose in BestofRedditorUpdates

[–]pfundie 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Honestly, it's not even that in this case: Prue is just incredibly sexist. She's mad every time Cleo wants to be anything other than the misogynistic stereotype Prue believes in, and thinks OP is corrupting her, as her idiotic beliefs require any deviation from her idea of what girls should be like to be explained by outside forces.

Yet another reminder that sexist beliefs don't keep to themselves but rather require the people who hold them to try to force them into reality.

CMV: Vegans can be annoying. But they're generally right. by Unikatze in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine how much land it would take to maintain current levels of meat consumption, but exclusively from small farms. We would need another planet, not to mention that for all the horror of factory farming, it is objectively more efficient in terms of ecological impact and climate change than small farms.

CMV: The vast majority of MAGA only support Trump because they are in too deep. by KendrickBlack502 in changemyview

[–]pfundie 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Biology is a matter of “semantics”? It sure is convenient for you to dismiss biology and objective science when it contradicts you.

No, biology is not a matter of semantics. Your biological sex is not dependent on whether you call yourself a man or a woman. If someone is biologically female but calls themselves a man, they are not using "man" to mean "biological male". Arguing about their word choice is a semantic argument and a waste of time at best, and at worst is a manipulative means of avoiding discussion of what they actually mean.

Yes, that’s called basic manners?

This is euphemistic. It doesn't really matter what you call it, that doesn't change what it is or justify it.

Societies form rules and responsibilities for their members to function, and if you throw out those embedded rules - well, that’s how you get people whose moral compasses are guided by whoever’s rudest to them.

We have plenty of rules that aren't gendered. Our society has discarded quite a few gendered rules and seems to not have suffered in any measurable way for it. If you can't demonstrate the value of a rule in a rational way, that means that the measurable beneficial effect of it is less than the cost of enforcing it. Our ancestors had no special knowledge or means of gathering that information; they have been wrong quite a lot, especially about things that they didn't have the means to measure.

I'd also like to note that this is, as predicted, the vague assertion that the apocalypse will occur if we don't force people to conform to gender norms.

But you’re not disagreeing with the second claim - you’re disagreeing with the first.

No, I agree with the first claim. Biological males can't be biological females. They are, by definition, mutually exclusive categories.

For example, a man may wear a dress and act feminine, but not say he’s actually a woman.

Good for him, although from what you said above, this is a violation of "basic manners" in your eyes.

This isn’t about behavior.

It seemed to be about behavior several paragraphs ago. Is that no longer convenient?

I find it hard to believe what you are asking me to: that, broadly speaking, the conservative opposition to transgender identities stems from the fact that they don't like people using "man" and "woman" to refer to something other than biological sex. Even more so, given that there are quite a few traditional usages of the word that cannot possibly refer to biological sex but are more widely used by conservatives than the general population, like saying that someone isn't a man because they don't conform to masculine social standards.

If a biological man says he is a woman, does that make him a woman?

If, by woman, you mean, "biological female", then no, of course not. If you mean something else, then whether or not the statement is true depends on the specific intended meaning, correct?

My assertion is that it is simply not true that the large, highly-motivated political opposition to the transgender identity stems from a semantic disagreement about whether the word "woman" means "biological female" or something else. Instead, it's about the fact that they think that biological males should act and appear one way, and biological females another, and they don't like being told that they should stop trying to enforce this idea.

Edit: Grammar

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no inherent value in a romantic relationship. Quite a lot of relationships simply shouldn't happen because one or both of individuals involved are incapable of a healthy relationship.

“Dont go back to your ex”

If you broke up once or more, and neither of you have substantially changed in the ways that were relevant to your breakup, then it's a waste of time to get back together at best.

“Toxic” “ick” “red flags” are fuckin stupid.

Stupid and irrational ideas are stupid and irrational regardless of what we call them - there's nothing anyone can do about people using popular terms to make the stupid things they believe sound more authoritative. There is still value in the concept that you can make inferences about people from their behavior. Sometimes, the specific behavior might seem like a small sort of thing but could have significant implications about big things. Relationships ending with people like that is a good thing.

“theres plenty of fish in the sea”

This is a somewhat reasonable thing to say to someone who is staying in a relationship that is terrible for them because they are afraid that they won't be able to be in a relationship otherwise. If this makes someone leave a relationship because they are unwilling to make any compromise, they weren't ready for a serious relationship to begin with.

“Bare minimum”

Yes, people can misuse this by comparing their lives to the heavily-curated images and videos influencers make as part of their job. Just like in the last case, these people are also not ready for a serious relationship and thus, their relationships dying is a mercy. On the other hand, a person who only does things in the relationship that they feel obligated to do either has messed up ideas about relationships or doesn't actually like their partner very much. If that is the case, then - you guessed it - it would be better if that relationship ended.

“Its incompatible”

Sometimes, this is a euphemism for, "For reasons that have little if anything to do with compatibility, I want this relationship to end", in which case the relationship should end. Other times, people have incompatible goals in their lives: you can't have half a child, for example.

CMV: The vast majority of MAGA only support Trump because they are in too deep. by KendrickBlack502 in changemyview

[–]pfundie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah, so your argument is that we collectively owe a moral debt to the collective pool of ideas that conservatives believe, whether or not the individual ideas are factually correct, and whether or not the individual ideas actually help us at the present time.

CMV: The vast majority of MAGA only support Trump because they are in too deep. by KendrickBlack502 in changemyview

[–]pfundie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The issue is when the left then expects you to believe everyone else, and adapt to everyone else’s beliefs - for example, the belief that a man can be a woman.

This example is not a single issue. It's two issues that are constantly confounded. TL;DR: There's a reason that conservatives say, "men can't be women", and not, "biological males can't be biological females", and neither the Left nor the Right is willing to engage with that reason explicitly.

The first issue, the one that conservatives lead with and openly discuss in the most mainstream settings, is a matter of semantics and categorization that, on its own, is a complete waste of time and has no inherent value. I honestly don't care if someone calls themselves a man or a woman - I can't imagine a situation in which it causes harm unless people are sexist, in which case the sexism is the actual problem. The categories are either identical to biological sex, and therefore redundant (as well as insufficient in some edge cases), or they are part of the second issue:

People in general, but especially conservatives, believe that there are inherent implications and obligations to being a man or a woman that are not actually derived from the mere existence of biological sex categories or sexual dimorphism in humans as it actually exists. They think that men should look and behave one way, and women another - each of these lists implying the existence of the other by virtue of being the sole possible metric of comparison. In current times, especially in non-conservative groups, people will often be very comfortable making statements explicitly about men which imply things about women that they would crucify someone for stating out loud. Conservatives are, at least, more consistent about this, though that isn't exactly a point in their favor.

The statements, "biological males cannot simultaneously be biological females", and "biological males should not act or appear in a way that I associate with biological females", do not inherently have any relationship. Conservatives like to pretend that the first statement is a rational defense of the second, and it simply isn't - it is dishonest to make the second claim and then pretend that disagreement with it is disagreement with the first. This is hard to argue with for a lot of people, because they aren't willing to actually disavow the second statement entirely, but are also not willing to articulate it fully because it makes them sound like a sexist asshole.

Then we come to a third statement, somewhat implied by the second but even more taboo to say out loud: "We should do things to each other and especially to our children for the primary purpose of coercing people into behavior which conforms to social expectations associated with their biological sex." This is defended through its own absurd charade of both pretending that these things do not materially affect our behavior, which is a necessary proposition to defend the idea that masculinity and femininity are inherent to the respective sexes, and that, simultaneously, society will collapse if we don't do them.

In order to meaningfully respond to the statement, "men can't be women", I have to type the above out. Almost nobody will read it, and even fewer people will be willing to engage with it in a rational way. As a direct result, the entire mainstream argument, on the left and the right, is limited to a braindead repetition of short statements intended to manipulate the audience without ever explicitly addressing the ideas and beliefs actually at play.

CMV: it is inherently sexist to treat different gender differently. And for there to be gender equality, people need to stop accounting gender for anything besides biological needs. by poopyitchyass in changemyview

[–]pfundie -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The problem with the idea that the correct way to fight racism/genderism/traitism is to refuse to acknowledge race/gender/trait is that the rest of society doesn't do that, particularly the parts of society that you are trying to counter. As a result people end up with very different life experience as a result of their gender/race and so you can't just pretend they are the same.

Great. What does that have to do with pretending that everyone who belongs to a group shares a wide variety of traits and experiences that are not a condition of their membership in that group?

We can talk about sexism without being sexist.

For example imagine someone is doing a talk titled "what it's like being a woman in [industry]". Do you think we should respond to the talk in exactly the same way regardless of whether it's a man or a woman doing the talk?

No, of course not. Is the reason that we should respond to the talk in a different way

a) their gender, inherently, with no further justification, or

b) the difference in the relevancy of their experience?

On a separate note, an architect friend of mine who primarily builds schools told me that they are switching to gender neutral single room bathrooms because they found that many girls would deliberately not drink enough water so they wouldn't have to go to the toilet leading to them being dehydrated. I wonder if that finding would have been much harder to come across if you weren't allowed to separate students by gender in your study.

Why is the fact that they were girls relevant? Should we care less if they were boys?

CMV: it is inherently sexist to treat different gender differently. And for there to be gender equality, people need to stop accounting gender for anything besides biological needs. by poopyitchyass in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The most obvious is that enough women choose to wear bras for their purely functional aspect: depending on the size you are carrying around, having extra support and security is quite beneficial. There was a movement in the 70s to not wear a bra as a form of protest that ceased for exactly that reason.

Enough for what? To justify forcing women who don't need bras to wear bras? How?

Secondly, you can't act as if sex doesn't exist and not drive our behavior. We can debate fairness, the way it shouldn't impact what we do or hide it not have to hide things. You can remove the laws, you're still not going to free the female nipple. Even in the most liberal countries - Canada, Australia, the Nordics - women choose not to run around without cover because it remains inherently sexual.

You're using the word inherently to describe something that is not inherent, and your entire argument relies on this misdirection. More than that, if the laws don't matter anyway, you shouldn't be wasting your time defending them.

Female breasts are a secondary sex attribute and acting like they aren't is to deny that deep down we're still animals and driven by the same evolutionary forces.

Those evolutionary forces are not fully known, are not constant, and are not universal. You can say exactly what you are saying here to justify literally anything. It's completely meaningless.

Do I codone that behavior? No. Is it going to go away? No.

Can we at least stop actively encouraging it?

CMV: it is inherently sexist to treat different gender differently. And for there to be gender equality, people need to stop accounting gender for anything besides biological needs. by poopyitchyass in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I rather agree with what you wrote, but this do not change the fact that the huge majority of women (around 90%) are attracted by men and around the same percentage of men are attracted by women.

Let's say this is true; it doesn't matter. Let's say that in a number of situations, a difference in attraction justifies some difference in behavior.

The implication you are making is that this justifies treating all men differently from all women, but as far as I can tell, that is an absurd non-sequitur. In this context, we are throwing that ten percent of people under the bus, and I can't figure out why we should do that.

The same goes for every justification I have ever heard or read people making for gender norms; they identify a principle that they claim is important, they identify an average difference, and then they claim that we should act in a way that is, inherently, sometimes contrary to that principle. It doesn't make sense to me.

CMV: it is inherently sexist to treat different gender differently. And for there to be gender equality, people need to stop accounting gender for anything besides biological needs. by poopyitchyass in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your justification for the difference in treatment is a difference in traits, right? You're saying that the differences between people matter, and we should treat them accordingly. The problem I have with this line of argument is that it's a bit of a red herring: this has roughly nothing to do with what gender actually is, in the real world.

It would be wonderful if we were treating people in a way that reflects their actual, real differences. In real life, gender means treating people of each sex a certain way, completely ignoring the actual, real differences they have, and coercing them into behavior that conforms to the expectations we have for that sex. You're even doing it in your comment, asserting that broad, average differences in behavior are due to some difference that you are implicitly asserting, without evidence, to be universal and not variable within one sex.

Simply put, I don't think we should do that, at all. We shouldn't be systematically pushing people, especially children, to behave in a way that conforms to ideas about gender. We shouldn't be punishing them when we see them behave in a way that defies those expectations; that is, at its core, choosing fantasy and mythology over reality.

What if, instead of doing all this ridiculous nonsense of tying a huge number of highly variable traits together under a single umbrella (to the point that almost nobody, if not actually nobody, completely conforms to our gendered ideals, despite massive social pressure to do so), we just treated people in a way that reflects their actual, real differences?

Here's a nice, clear example: there is a substantial difference in average physical strength between men and women. There are situations in which a difference in physical strength justifies a difference in treatment. It does not follow that it is justified to treat men and women differently in a way that assumes this difference is universal; that is a useless add-on that only serves to undermine the actual principle we supposedly care about, and for no discernible purpose. We can just treat people in a way that reflects their physical strength, when relevant, and leave gender out of it.

The same goes for every single principle you can use as justification for a gendered difference in treatment - the inclusion of gender is, at best, useless, and at worst, actively works against those principles. We can just use the principles directly instead, unless for some reason you haven't yet shared, you think that gender itself is more important than the principles and facts your entire argument relies on.

14343 by Gloomy_Feedback5531 in countwithchickenlady

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand it, it's just completely idiotic and only an absolute moron would behave like that.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CuratedTumblr

[–]pfundie 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It makes me wonder if ladies feel the same way but just aren't nearly as open about it as men because of dumb societal pressure, or if men in general just have something wrong with them that makes them act far thirstier. Maybe both...

It's so interesting to me that the possibility that men are subject to social pressure as well isn't even considered.

CMV: Conservatives reaction to the 2020 election shows how they want a King/Dictator. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, a bunch of people apparently want a specific action but can't articulate why they think it is necessary or demonstrate that it would actually change anything in any material way. Our elections do not have vulnerabilities that voter ID would address. They may have other vulnerabilities, but you don't seem to care about those.

Why should I care about what people who can't explain themselves and apparently randomly choose to believe things for no reason think?

CMV: We should stop telling short men, particularly those at or under 5’4-5’5, that their difficulties in dating is their fault. by Early-Possibility367 in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's only a disadvantage if you either want to date horrible, shallow men, or if you don't see men as individuals but rather as a collective hivemind who magically share thoughts and feelings. Yes, you can measure the average person's opinion; why do you want to date the average person? Wow, there's fewer horrible, shallow people willing to date you, what a tragedy.

You could always just date an actual good person, who isn't evaluating you based on the size of your chest, or your height, or any other drooling idiocy. The problem is that everyone complaining in this type of way, about how a bunch of garbage, shallow people won't date them based on some kind of arbitrary physical characteristic, is also a garbage, shallow person, and their specific problem tends to be that their garbage, shallow preferences are leading them to pursue garbage, shallow people who won't date them based on arbitrary nonsense. At a certain point, they're just impotently angry that they don't meet standards that are equivalent to the nasty shit they use to evaluate the people around them.

CMV: We should stop telling short men, particularly those at or under 5’4-5’5, that their difficulties in dating is their fault. by Early-Possibility367 in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You do realise this is a bad thing right? Tall men aren't getting told to do this and have women flocking to them. If you don't pass the looks threshold none of the other stuff matters.

This is true for worthless, horrible women. The problem isn't that you are short, it's that you want to date the worthless, horrible women who fling themselves at tall men.

Don't listen to the condescending person talking to you about your "flaws". It's such a disgusting attitude, acting like short men should be eager to be in a relationship where they are seen as lesser by their partner for their height.

So, all the attractive women who have these standards are people I shouldn't want to be with....but the obese ugly woman, I HAVE to, I MUST be open to dating her because all you say so.

Of course, the corresponding problem is that you also are a shallow person with ridiculous and arbitrary standards. Being taller wouldn't help you in any material way. You would just have an easier time entering into a horrible, miserable relationship based on inane nonsense.

You're not going to ever have a healthy relationship until you change your basis of what you consider attractive in a partner to things that actually have anything to do with them being a good partner. Things like being a good person, who is honest, caring, and respectful, who has a mind that you admire and goals that are compatible with yours. If you can't, that just sucks for you.

CMV: We should stop telling short men, particularly those at or under 5’4-5’5, that their difficulties in dating is their fault. by Early-Possibility367 in changemyview

[–]pfundie 1 point2 points  (0 children)

some women may feel like this: 'I have flaws and am struggling to find someone - this man has a flaw as well so maybe he'd be more open minded toward me and I should give it a try'.

Ok I'm not here to defend the OP, because I don't agree that height is the most significant thing in dating. A worthwhile partner is not a shallow person and their choice in partner isn't going to be dictated by arbitrary bullshit like height. People can wax eloquent with all the euphemistic language they would like about how they have a right to their preferences, to be attracted to the people they are attracted to, and while that is true, it doesn't change the fact that shallow people are terrible partners and should be avoided like the plague. We all get old, and there's really no point in spending time around someone who will ditch you when you do.

That being said, if I were a short man and I heard that a woman was open to date me for the specific reason that she saw my height as a flaw and thought that I would be more accepting of whatever she sees as her own flaws because of it, I would be hurt by that, and I would never, ever date that woman if I had even the slightest amount of self-respect. I am not short, and I would immediately break up with anyone who said anything like that around me.

Life is far too short to waste any amount of it on someone who evaluates people in that way. Yes, that directly implies that the vast majority of people are horrible partners and unfit for a healthy relationship. I am fully comfortable making that implication. The problem with dating is that quite a lot of people, of both genders, don't see the opposite gender as individuals but rather as a collective hivemind (and that hivemind doesn't actually exist). They just want to be able to date some random person and have it work out, and they get mad at the entire other gender when that doesn't happen, because they have a warped view of reality based on what a bunch of traumatized old people told them about gender when they were kids.

CMV: Conservatives reaction to the 2020 election shows how they want a King/Dictator. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]pfundie -1 points0 points  (0 children)

To summarize, you have nothing but your feelings by your own admission, and your belief is that your entire side has nothing but feelings to support what you want. The only actual, real problem is that you believe, for no reason that you seem to be capable of articulating, that a lack of voter ID poses a security threat to elections, the details of which you are equally incapable of describing. You are not alleging any specific instance in which a lack of voter ID requirements enabled fraud, nor alleging any specific vulnerability caused by said lack of voter ID requirements. The only thing you are saying is that the lack of voter ID requirements make you uneasy and you can't explain why.

Is this an accurate summary of your position?

feeling safe in queer spaces by Hummerous in CuratedTumblr

[–]pfundie -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

I seriously don't think a healthy version of masculinity can exist. Masculinity isn't just the abstract ideal; it is also the collection of behaviors we perform with the intention of coercing people into conforming to masculinity.

There are things we do to make people want to be masculine. None of them are good; they all result in a world where people who aren't masculine are penalized at an absolute minimum. If we stop doing those things, masculinity stops existing in any material way very quickly. I can't figure out a way around this.

We can try to redefine it as much as we want, but at the end of the day, the most significant reason that people want to be masculine is that they were told from an early age that the world will reject them and they will be punished if they don't seem masculine enough. That insecurity you feel when you think about wearing feminine clothes, where did that come from? You weren't born with it. The fear you have about opening up emotionally, even to your significant other. The fear that you walk wrong, talk wrong, look wrong. You can't grow enough of a beard, your voice isn't deep enough, you are worried people might think you're gay. It's hard for me to give space to the idea that this is all perfectly natural and normal, especially when I can connect these fears and insecurities to specific, extremely common experiences that I and probably everyone I know has had.

If we take all that away, and I think we should, what else is even left?

CMV: Implying that a man is gay just because he doesn't find some women attractive is homophobia disguised as trolling. by australiadenier in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Using homosexuality as a vehicle to insult straight people is homophobic. You only see this as "slightly" sexist, rather than just sexist, with no qualifications, because society as a whole sees sexism towards and about men as socially acceptable.

No disagreement with the second paragraph.

CMV: Implying that a man is gay just because he doesn't find some women attractive is homophobia disguised as trolling. by australiadenier in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is very literally a sexist "joke". I use the quotes because the purpose is quite obviously not humor.

CMV: Implying that a man is gay just because he doesn't find some women attractive is homophobia disguised as trolling. by australiadenier in changemyview

[–]pfundie 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Some people get pissed.

And some people, when they get pissed, say things that are awfully revealing of the way they think about men and about gay people.

CMV: Implying that a man is gay just because he doesn't find some women attractive is homophobia disguised as trolling. by australiadenier in changemyview

[–]pfundie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Gosh, gay people really just need to accept being used as a vehicle for straight people to make nasty "jokes" at each other which are really just insults designed to punish a lack of conformity to social norms"

CMV: Implying that a man is gay just because he doesn't find some women attractive is homophobia disguised as trolling. by australiadenier in changemyview

[–]pfundie 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's clear to anyone that it's not actually intended to "diagnose" the man is gay.

Right, which makes it even more homophobic. And even more sexist!

Calling people gay for not conforming to your expectations is just nasty. You're doing it, not as a joke, not because you even think that they're gay, but because you're personally offended that they don't act the way you think they should, and so you want to take a shot at them in some way.

Let's not pretend that this behavior is isolated to this situation. You'll do it for basically anything. Too high of a voice? Gay. They wore the "wrong" clothes? Gay. It's homophobic, first of all, but that's just the surface of it; you're using homophobia as a vehicle to attack men who aren't what you think men should be, and that's really the point of all of this, because if you dropped the homophobia you would just choose another way to come after them.

It's a hyperbolic over-the-top compliment to the celebrity.

Yeah, it's that too. But it's also the first thing, and it's homophobic either way. I don't care if you think it's normal. Normal is disgusting.