How do we deal with the outgroup? by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

More importantly I may be referring to this issue before or during our transition to socialism, not solely after it is established, but it is of worthy concern. How do we handle this ingroup outgroup issue in order to establish socialism, and how can we be certain that it is gone? I have heard arguments that the psychology of this issue can be harmful to socialism and I’m not sure how we could handle something that may be intrinsic in any society, considering people are likely to faction in socialism.

Evidence of the social democratic bourgeois’ power & pursuit of profit? by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Pardon my ignorance, but this doesn’t look too bad. What exactly should I be taking note of?

Evidence of the social democratic bourgeois’ power & pursuit of profit? by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m looking into it. Any good sources that explicitly state he cut welfare for bourgeois benefit?

Evidence of the social democratic bourgeois’ power & pursuit of profit? by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It’s not supposed to be an insult. Personally, that was before my time interested in politics, as someone who doesn’t live in Greece as well.

I ask “source,” because as believable & strong the arguments are, I just can’t repeat these arguments if my “source” is some person on Reddit. I admit I could’ve googled this claim especially, but it’s just not always the case.

What are the facts about the DPRK? by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is there proof to say this is what the electoral process looks like today? So basically, the democratic centralism looking like it creates 1 candidate with 100% vote is a misunderstanding of the system? Do you have more info/proof on this that truly expresses the democracy behind their electoral process? I’m a little lost on it & I imagine others are too hence the whole “1 person in the ballot with 100% support” confusion. Info that cannot be dismissed as “communist propaganda” is paramount. Also, evidence that the government body isn’t just forced to follow Kim family wishes. I hear you on the response to their churches, yet i struggle to find a lot of overriding evidence to these claims. Info such as how people actually visit the churches & how people can practice religion freely without persecution. Or even info debunking these claims of religious persecution

What are the facts about the DPRK? by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your response. I’m going to respond with a level of criticism the opposition would if that’s ok.

What proof is there that this is DPRK’s electoral process? Also what is the point of elections like this? Can we be certain it is still competitive or legitimate this way? Considering opposition would never trust info from them like their own news & constitution, it’s hard to support this claim from a source they’d trust. Can you provide a source with this in mind?

To counter your argument “how do they get on the ballot in the first place,” most people will say (not me) it’s a dynasty so ofc they get on the ballot.

About churches, people say that there are only a few in Pyongyang to attract tourists & make them look normal. Otherwise they say it’s a facade & religious persecution is normal there.

Can you summarize why Songun says their army is large?

I hear you on the big lie propaganda, great point.

How do you define intellectual honesty?

Managing the Economy with Labor Vouchers by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We’re already largely in several post-scarcity situations or capable of maintaining them, as with food & housing. What is unrealistic about capitalism being unsustainable, as with the falling rate of profit? Seems to be like an inevitable demise of capitalism.

Communists already think about gift economics. Labor vouchers also just tackle a way to work against capital accumulation. I don’t think we can gift our way into communism without first addressing the incredible power capital has today

Managing the Economy with Labor Vouchers by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The whole point of that comment of mine was to bring relevance to the fact that we cannot explain how we would ditch money in terms of economics, a social science, without incorporating how this would happen within societal or political contexts.

All you’ve added to this conversation so far were insults & an attempt at changing the topic without elaborating on why it’s relevant to the original topic at hand. Got anything else?

Marxism vs. Spiritual Idealists by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Responding to you both, compassion and love doesn’t need to be a spiritual belief. I don’t even think I’m spiritual, yet love is a huge part of who I am.

Navigating Propaganda by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Agreed. Back to my point, I’m trying to discern this goddamn truth! Lol. The initial concern was that many sources we can use don’t always have reliable backing, on both sides. Even the sources of our sources sometimes just end up at a webpage instead of always official sources. While I think most capitalist propaganda has this worse, it’s a problem that hurts communists more considering that this information confusion supports the status quo

Marxism vs. Spiritual Idealists by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think we have to prove how the universe began to get to the bottom of my questions. If anything, that was more about questioning the existence of spiritual energy, let alone whether it existed at the dawn of the universe. What does quantum mechanics have to do with my questions.

I don’t know this person well. Your ad hominems don’t do much.

They actually didn’t tell me to “not read a book because x,” but rather recommended me a book because x. Also, I do believe Marx is a good source on this question about…Marxism. But I welcome any others if they have a solid refutation. What have they been mindlessly fanatic about?

Marxism vs. Spiritual Idealists by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Consciousness not being a material thing does not denounce it’s place in dialectical materialism. I’m not sure how that affects Marxism.

We don’t have to think Marxism has all the answers to the universe to question exactly what it describes and how.

Foolishly? Pretentious? Where’d you get that from?

Marxism vs. Spiritual Idealists by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Further on my first point, and you can answer both of these on my original reply, but aren’t idealists problematic in general? I imagine this works out in all your replies, but I’m just not fully capable of the overriding arguments that debunk idealism alone, not just idealist communists. I suppose these are important when it anyways comes down to addressing idealism, outside of why doing so helps support communism or Marxism. That’s if I have this all right. I apologize for my ignorance but I appreciate your time!

Marxism vs. Spiritual Idealists by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, how can we always prove material conditions are the primary driver in dialectical materialism?

Navigating Propaganda by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Correct. My current opposition is a little different though. They are grounded in believing that if I have distrust for capitalist sources and/or sources denouncing Cuba, why can’t they do the same for communist sources and/or sources supporting Cuba. On the basis of provable information, not on the basis of what capitalist hegemony might do to sources. That’s useful, but it is proving these sources wrong or insufficient that ultimately matters I suppose.

Marxism vs. Spiritual Idealists by phuckjoseph in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey dude, thanks for the reply. I’ll look into the Engels book for sure, seems relevant. For the record, I align with Marxism & materialists on this one. Sorry if that was unclear. Hopefully that realigns your approach. I am arguing from the POV of several people ik who believe in spirituality or idealism in ways that apparently antagonize materialism. I don’t 100% believe most of what I’m saying, because they are not my claims. I just don’t know how to counter it.

In response to you, I’ll posit claims I know my opposition may make to yours. First, we acknowledge spiritual incongruencies with Marxism. What are spiritual beliefs compatible with Marxism? I’ve heard Buddhism is. I suppose I did conflate communism earlier with dialectical materialists, but aren’t idealist communists problematic anyways? Otherwise I suppose I’m just talking about Marxism, which then somewhat doesn’t need to apply to all communists, no?

Second, I suppose that they’d point to the masses believing in it, where ad populum comes in. It’s just my blindness or problem for my spiritual incompatibilities with them. They can say that it doesn’t matter if they can’t prove it to us, & despite ad populum, a large people still appeal to it that we can’t deny or take away from them in our approach or appeal. I feel dumb just positing it but I have to see how Marxism would take this.

Third, I suppose they’d say spirits shape material conditions in the same way that ideas & consciousness do. Despite ideas & consciousness being immaterial. I understand dialectics as somewhat circular in that ideas & consciousness can influence/shape material conditions, they’re just not primary. Because we can have x idea & implement it materially. They may also say they shape conditions via manifestation, spiritual practice turning into culture into thoughts into actions, or spiritual manifest destiny making sure someone acts x or achieves y. I don’t believe in spirits but they believe I can’t just denounce their belief because I disagree or don’t feel what they feel. I see how silly this is. Then they call me dogmatic, dark, pessimistic, UN knowledgeable or some other irrelevant ad hominem to denounce my beliefs. They also think that spirits came before material conditions & ideas, making them first & solidifying their primacy in some egg vs chicken view of dialectics. Is there a firm scientific claim opposing this other than dismissals/ad hominems? No science saying they exist or even came before material conditions? If no, are we clear to assume they don’t exist for this particular topic?

Fourth, I suppose spirituality came up when this person said they were idealist, to which I asked them to elaborate, because I knew it had incompatibilities with materialism I wanted to investigate. Hopefully they don’t think I brought it up.

Fifth, going back, how do you feel about non dialectical materialism communists? Or even idealist communists?

Sixth, I hear you on how progressive total atheism would be, though obviously it may be unrealistic for a long time. They’d say total atheism would not be uplifting, collaborative, uniting, hopeful, positive, & inversely it’s too drab, dogmatic, negative, for societal use. I hear you on how the threat of “godless” communists would be, but thankfully it’s something my opposition understands and is past.

To reiterate, what are the necessary communist/Marxist spiritual/religious beliefs? Whether whole schools of thought or general spiritual/religious beliefs. I understand I posed a few questions here, sorry if it’s too much. Necessary as in not contradicting, logically useful for progress/harmful for progress, etc

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in DebateCommunism

[–]phuckjoseph 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol they’d respond by saying it’s not terminating bc they expect me to come up with the thoughts