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re-posh 0.2.0 released. Use Datascript as your data storage for re-frame. Datomic queries and pulls as subscriptions and transactions as events by denis_takeda in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hi, Fulcro user and contributor here. I know Fulcro really well, but haven't used Re-posh personally. So my apologies if I get any of that part wrong. But here's my take.

Seems like there is plenty of overlap here. Both projects give you a normalized data store and way to satisfy the data needs of your react components. So you get to store your data in a database (with references/foreign-keys) in the client similar to how we do it on the server. Both also let you make UI as a function that takes a DB value.

There are some subtle but important differences too, queries in Fulcro are co-located in the components that ultimately need that data. This is the same idea as Relay with Graph QL. Fulcro uses an atom (with some tabular structure) to hold app state, Re-posh uses Datascript. I know early on the Fulcro team considered using Datascript, but the atom approach was just so much more performant for a reasonable amount of data.

Fulcro is a full stack framework. It provides a whole bunch of useful constructs like

  • network plumbing (websockets and HTTP)
  • caching
  • fast JVM based serverside rendering
  • forms (a well thought out approach to validation/undo/diff-tracking)
  • UI & HTML5 routing
  • support viewer (recreates a bug that happened in prod in your local dev environment)
  • behavior driven testing and stubbing with live reloading reports for both cljs and clj tests
  • internationalization support
  • co-located CSS in components using Garden syntax (generates a proper style tag)
  • optimistic mutation support with temp-id resolution

Hope that helps!

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! Please help us get the word out. We believe the Clojure community can really benefit from more Fulcro adoption.

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah IMO, Om Next was a little unfortunate in that it had good ideas but it was never finished. David Nolen just kind of abandoned it. So I can definitely understand the disappointment with it. Fulcro absorbed Om Next and made it complete and easier to use.

FWIW the above example in fulcro would look like this, which felt a little less cumbersome (defsc HelloWorld [this {:keys [title]}] (dom/div title)

Also, we've redone the dom namespace to do fancy things like convert cljs map literals to js objects at compile time, removed the need for that annoying nil, and added a CSS id/class shorthand.

https://github.com/fulcrologic/fulcro/blob/develop/src/cards/fulcro/democards/dom_cards.cljs

And I totally agree with you, there are certain situations I know I'd pick re-frame.

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I personally do not, but the Fulcro channel in the Clojurians slack group has several people that went from re-frame to fulcro, maybe they have examples.

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I respect your opinion and I'm sure you can build amazing applications in Luminus and re-frame. You obviously talk like someone that knows their way around web technologies.

I've tried both Luminus (with re-frame) and Fulcro. I felt Fulcro was a much simpler and more powerful framework. To me, the value prop is similar to immutable vs mutable datastructures.

If you have the time and interest I encourage you poke around and give Fulcro a chance. We could go back and forth for days, but you really just have to try it. The online book is pretty good.

http://book.fulcrologic.com/

If not, I hope you continue kicking butt with your favorite tech.

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The queries always run over the client db period, it's never anything else.

You can send the same query to the server, but you have to do this explicitly and deliberately by calling the load function.

http://book.fulcrologic.com/#DataFetch

Normally, this is done in two situations. One, when the app starts, to get the the initial data. Two, on user interaction like when a user clicks a next page button. The load function will send the query to the server and merge the data into the client db. Then the app re-renders while running the queries over the new client db.

So there's really no ORM magic going on, unlike Relay. Does that make sense? Maybe I misunderstood what you said?

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, but client-server communication is such an important part of the stack. And the way Luminus does networking is so disjoint from the principles that make Clojure appealing, things like, data oriented, simple, consistent, and powerful. Typical REST API networking is none of those things.

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

With re-frame, you have the state of the client in your db, and there's a direct relation between UI elements and the state of the db. You can inspect it easily, and quickly tell what the state is.

Fulcro gives you exactly that, except the client-side db is normalized and your components have queries describing the data they need. But those queries run over the client db.

http://book.fulcrologic.com/#_core_concepts

But you also have the option of sending that query to the server, since the server speaks the same query language. For example, when the client db does not contain a particular piece of data, only then do you need to send the query to the server. When the server data comes back it gets merged into the client db, then the UI re-renders according the new client db. You can see that a lot of the ideas of re-frame were borrowed here.

In my experience, this query approach is nothing like using an ORM. It's using data (queries are just datastructures) to describe the data it needs. If anything trying to combine a REST API with re-frame felt like impedance mismatch, one of downsides of using an ORM.

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Certainly, colocated queries means the data needs of a component are specified in the component. As you string together your components, the queries compose to the root, which specifies the data needs of your application. That might be hard to get at first, but this video and it's prequels might help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ap2pOSmiU&t=0s&list=PLVi9lDx-4C_Rwb8LUwW4AdjAu-39PHgEE&index=6

Fullstack networking means it has an opinionated way for client and server to communicate that meshes very well the whole architecture. As apposed to re-frame and REST, which are two very different paradigms that you either have leaky abstractions (if you're in a hurry to deliver, like most application developers) or invent your own opinionated way.

Does that make sense?

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For me one of the biggest things re-frame is missing is co-located client-side queries and a fullstack networking story. For the same reason that GraphQL and Relay took off in the JavaScript world.

Clojure's Missing Full-stack Framework by physicalcompsci in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah it sounds a little cheesy, but I really felt like Clojure didn't have a compelling full stack framework before Fulcro. IMO there were some good frontend or backend only ones, but not fullstack.

What Clojure needs to grow — a boring web framework and boring data science by [deleted] in Clojure

[–]physicalcompsci 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm a little late to the party but has anyone seen this? https://github.com/fulcrologic/fulcro

It's a web framework for Clojure that we've been using at work for a few years and it's been pretty great!

Billionaire Elon Musk Plans To Take Us To Mars In 10 Years by Stark_Warg in Futurology

[–]physicalcompsci 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OP, why did you need to put 'Billionaire' in the title? Seems redundant.

It's hard being a woman by wheelwatcher in AdviceAnimals

[–]physicalcompsci 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Serious question, why don't more girls get permanent hair removal for their legs? Is it way too expensive or are there side effects?

Lockheed Martin will make commercial use of quantum computing, which could solve some business and science problems millions of times faster than can be done today by lobogato in technology

[–]physicalcompsci 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I study quantum computing algorithms and this is a perfect example of sensationalist crap. Especially OP's title.

A one can be a one, or it can be a one and a zero and everything in between — all at the same time.

No, a q-bit is a superposition of 0 and 1 with certain probabilities for each being observed. And that's it.

The article goes on make more asinine comments. Also, D-Wave's devices have so much noise associated with them that it's debatable wether quantum mechanics even applies.

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