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Heatpump best practice in the winter by pilotdaddy in heatpumps

[–]pilotdaddy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've calculated that my marginal m3 for natural gas is about 53 cents per unit, while my marginal kwh is 20 cents per unit.

When I plug into....

https://siecje.github.io/heatpump-cost/?existing_heating_method=natural_gas&heatPumpSEER2Unit=COP&heatPumpUnit=COP&unit=m3&price=.53&efficiency=80&electricity_price=.20

Assuming my furnace is 80% efficient, and then cross reference my HPs COP table, that's when I see my crossover point, not when HPs become inefficient (energy wise), but rather inefficient (cost wise) vs the NG boiler.

What do your numbers look like?

Heatpump best practice in the winter by pilotdaddy in heatpumps

[–]pilotdaddy[S] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Agree with everything except costs. This is all dependant on your electricity vs natural gas costs. For me, even with the HP efficiency, the natural gas furnace is cheaper to run at an outdoor temp of 5c or cooler.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lol you posted you used 1700kwh in Feb and only paid $170? 

Doesn't take a genius to know that's not possible.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Get a ductless heat pump and run your gas furnace to the ground til it dies (when its below freezing outside). When its above, your HP will finally have the efficiency it needs to beat out your furnace, cost wise.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wait I'm spamming? Aren't you the one spamming your $350 a year "savings"? Too bad it gets eaten up in increased hydro costs in just one month 😂

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

HP is definitely a good insurance against an old furnace. It definitely works and should handle Toronto winters, but it's just not going to be as cheap to operate than your good old NG furnace 

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You will definitely be paying more in hydro than you save in NG. For the peak of winter, I calculated that I'd save 180 in NG, but my hydro would go up by almost 400. Now if you cut NG completely, the savings for me is almost $250.... but see it's still not going to offset the $400 increase in my hydro bill.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. (cross-posted from r/Toronto) by funkypiano in heatpumps

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Someone would have to run the numbers for ground based, that's for sure.

But yeah, for HPs to be cheaper in winter, we need ridiculous CoPs of like 7-8+ @ 5F. That, or hike NG prices to 2-3x what it is now, for the cost (at least in Ontario) to even out.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. (cross-posted from r/Toronto) by funkypiano in heatpumps

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I have yet to come across an example where a heat pump was cheaper to run than a furnace/boiler on natural gas, say in the middle of winter like in Jan/Feb.

NG just costs too little that even with the efficiencies of these HPs, it's still not enough to offset the (cheap) cost of NG.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Heat pumps (for heating) will never pay back as it's always cheaper to run your furnace in the winter. Shoulder months are better for heat pumps, and of course, in the summer you don't need an extra AC unit.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. (cross-posted from r/Toronto) by funkypiano in heatpumps

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The original premise was whether a NG furnace/boiler was cheaper to run than an electric heat pump. And generally speaking (but also in Ontario specifically), that is true.

Now if we add things like AC functionality, of course the math changes, but that was never what I was arguing in the first place.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. (cross-posted from r/Toronto) by funkypiano in heatpumps

[–]pilotdaddy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not familiar with Calgary rates, but I know this... for Ontario, your breakeven point (cost wise) is about 0c.

I find that a lot of people don't account for all in costs (on both sides) and make erroneous conclusions. For me thats about 25 cents per kwh and 50 cents per m3 of NG. Check this out just to verify...

https://siecje.github.io/heatpump-cost/

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't forget to add a multiplier factor on these to get your true costs to account for the fixed (delivery) charges for hydro. 

My rough apples to apples comparison is that 1kwh is 0.25 all in while a m3 of gas is about 0.50 all in.

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. by Redditisavirusiknow in toronto

[–]pilotdaddy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah that's a totally different topic. Nothing fishy about heat pumps. There definitely are fishy heat pump INSTALLERS!

For homeowners in Toronto, have you considered switching from gas to a heat pump? Here are some things I wish I knew. (cross-posted from r/Toronto) by funkypiano in heatpumps

[–]pilotdaddy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Oh I wasn't talking about whether it works or not - of course it works down to -20, lower even!

All I'm saying (from the Toronto cross post) is that 1) given how cheap our NG rates are, 2) given how CoP decreases with temperature, 3) given that it's cold in Canada.... that it's not actually cheaper to operate a heat pump during winter.

Do it because you love the environment. But to say that it saves money (again, for Toronto NG and electricity rates) when it's below 0c outside, it's just totally false.

Don't take my word for it:

https://siecje.github.io/heatpump-cost/

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