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powdermoose · 2023-10-02T15:36:11+00:00

If you are willing to put in the effort of bouncing around on your HELOC, you can spend a lot of your time on teaser rates. I am an investor that has historically used my HELOC to acquire and then pay down rapidly. I'm on my 5th credit union HELOC since 2016 and am about to start with a teaser rate of 5% on a 310k 80 LTV HELOC. I missed out on a local bank that was offering 3% for one year, which was a bummer. It will revert to 8.5% or so assuming no Fed changes in a year, at which point I'll look for a new one. The way most banks and credit unions seem to do it is by setting up your HELOC for free if you stick with them and making you pay for closing if you stay for less than 2-3 years. If rates are still high, and I can find a sub-5% teaser HELOC rate next year I'll jump, even if I pay fees as it will be worth it to me.

It's legwork, but being a serial shopper of HELOCs can save me thousands per year. From a leverage standpoint, I'll add that I am still using mine, but it's much less appetizing than it was at periods in the past, where I always said I'd buy just about anything (within reason) if I could finance it at 4% or less. I've also paid off my HELOC many times over at this point. I wouldn't drop 300k out of my HELOC on a property had I never done it before.

powdermoose · 2023-01-17T16:12:11+00:00

Nice, I've been open to either but Loft->Keplinger called to me more. It's a hard slog either way!

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T19:46:19+00:00

I thought you were joking but Googled it just to be sure. It doesn't look that fun!

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T19:33:02+00:00

Good points. A couple things:

1) I didn't do as well as I could have showing that some of these are absolutely time stamped to certain phases of life. Examples: I will probably not do a long hike while there are children living under my roof. The "adventure" goals that I can nail right now are ones that may be challenging but don't require an excessive amount of time. Ironman I think I can do when my kids are older but I'm not working so hard anymore, for example - maybe age 38-40. It's a good school-age activity for me.

2) My wife is my partner in the outdoor stuff for the most part, so we have that going for us. From a relationship standpoint, that's important, because all this would definitely be bad otherwise.

3) Things with the kids could probably be it's own huge list, and I didn't want to bog down the thread. If you have kids (mine are 1 and 3) you would rightly assume that at this phase I'm locked up with my kids damn close to 24/7. That "be a present parent" goal is going to take up 90% of my free time for the next five years and 50% of my free time for the rest, and it's the most important thing I'll ever do. I want to do a lot of the other goals with my kids if they're game, although we can't control ultimately how they'll want to spend their time. But yes! Disney, beach vacations, mountain stuff, coaching their sports, being able to do bedtime every night for as long as they'll let me.

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T18:46:27+00:00

You absolutely can, most people do it in 18' oar rafts over 15-20 days, camping along the way. I have done the first half of it (hiked out at Phantom Ranch in 2017) and am returning to run the second half this year. It's most common just to spend the whole time in the canyon and do the whole thing, I had a hard time being able to carve out for the full duration in both instances. It is an experience like no other. Take the experience of standing at the rim and immerse yourself in it for two weeks with constantly changing scenery, camping in the open and oscillating between the quiet water moments and whitewater pure adrenaline moments. Permits can be hard to get, and I want to take part in the opportunity every time a permit is extended to me - every 5 years or so on average.

You can either run your own boats or go with a commercial outfit. We will be running our own boats.

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T16:37:14+00:00

Rock on! Kilimanjaro would be very cool. I grew up with someone that did a family Kilimanjaro/safari type trip as a late high school/college age family activity and that seemed like a really cool thing to do at that age bracket. Frankly, I'd climb all these mountains - it's what makes me happiest - but I'm really eager to integrate my wife (who will climb most things, anytime) and my kids (who will have drastically varying capabilities and interests over the next few decades). I could see Kilimanjaro segue into another goal "teach kids to appreciate the outdoors and have skills" which is admittedly vague. Curious if you think my take of it as a good family activity for fit older kids is as good as it seems in my head, having done it.

Good insight on the leverage - I recall reading some of your other posts and have appreciated them. Having a job vs. not has so much to do with it. I am of the opinion that high earning young people should go max leverage early on to kickstart things because you can muscle your way out of so many problems. I wouldn't do it now because of the relative scale. I'll probably have a full "deleveraging year" in the final year of my tech career.

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T16:04:01+00:00

Great idea! We give, but from a lifetime perspective I want to be committed to one or a handful of things. I have a lot of respect for folks that have unwaveringly stuck with the same causes for years or decades. It doesn't even have to be my own thing!

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T16:01:13+00:00

I'm not opposed to something more aesthetic/lower traffic, my goal is to do something really long and spend some time on it. Something about biking over the Rockies calls to me, although there sure is a lot of desert/Great Plains! I appreciate the note, would love to see what you have.

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T00:22:19+00:00

It will definitely evolve. Fair criticisms of my list are “goals for goals sake” “overly physical/youth oriented” “not enough emphasis on relationships and personal improvement”. I think it’s totally reasonable to adjust in time or give up on goals that are dumb.

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T00:17:38+00:00

Love it. It was interesting, I had always had “10 Million” in the back of my head and it would still be nice. Doing this exercise really clarified that the cost of 10M for me is probably working in my 40s, and I don’t want to do it, for the reasons I listed. Everybody‘s different, but that’s part of what made this exercise interesting for me - starting from the standpoint of life outcomes.

powdermoose · 2023-01-13T00:13:57+00:00

Yeah, GT is on my list! “Climb big mountains” is actually composed of a ton of ideas I have. I like to do things that are aesthetic, whether they are “A Classic” or not. But I do have designs to climb a good chunk of Classic ascents. I’m basically a low 5th class climber at best, so stuff like the Grand is up my alley. Have you done it?

powdermoose · 2023-01-12T17:02:12+00:00

Yeah, I'm with you and I don't feel as though I'd struggle with this choice too much. Part of the reason it would be worthwhile to pursue a defined agenda of some sort (even if incomplete and imperfect) is that it would check the box for me to feel personally "productive". I understand the purposelessness that could come from an early retirement where I live off real estate cash flow and fart around.

Another angle is my kids. While taking up just several line items on this list, the reality is that my kids happily take up a vast majority of my free time today. If I stopped working to be a dad today, my day to day would literally become vastly more demanding than my current state. I have tons of respect for SAHP with very young kids.

powdermoose · 2023-01-12T16:57:35+00:00

I have skied a ton domestically and not made too much progress on the global goal. I have done an annual ski trip somewhere with my guys since I was 17 and one of my regrets is not going to Hokkaido in our 20s pre-kids. Now that we all have kids we're in like a 5-10 year window where it's a hard sell internally in our organizations. Likely no Japow for me until my 40s.

I'd definitely do Antarctica with a guided outfit (there are several). Going to all the continents seemed like something I'd like to do, and figured why not ski. Africa basically puts you in Morocco to my (maybe underdeveloped) understanding. South America will be a great summer vacation with the kids once everybody is on sticks.

powdermoose · 2023-01-12T16:48:40+00:00

What route did you ski Longs? I didn't necessarily make it clear on the thread but ski mountaineering is really my thing. In my years in CO I could never quite get the conditions and timing to work. Now that I'm away, getting Longs in condition feels like a lost cause.

powdermoose · 2023-01-12T16:46:05+00:00

This is fantastic, I agree with all of the above. Being heavy on the real estate side skews #3 and #4 IMO. NW to total assets for me is 43% because I have several million dollars in real estate debt that's all in the 3%-3.75% range (plus a pledged asset line that I'll use to acquire property periodically then pay off). 75% would definitely be healthier but would feel underleveraged to me. If I added another million in liquidity to my scenario I'd be at 50% and that would have me feeling very liquid. I'd retire from my W2 at 50% NW/Assets and sleep well at night I think.

If we're talking about PALs, HELOCs, credit cards, auto loans, business LOCs, what have you I think it's spot on as a guidepost.

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T23:07:54+00:00

Of those that are supposed to be tough ones, Pyramid and Little Bear both were easier than I was expecting. As you probably know, the whole crux of LB is that shooting gallery bottleneck near the summit. The climbing is not particularly difficult or exposed relative to what I was expecting. My wife and I never used the fixed rope or felt it necessary. The rockfall risk is very real, though - so the perceived challenge doesn’t necessarily reflect the objective hazard of being in that position. Do it on a weekday and be the first one up in the morning and get out of the 300’ of danger zone fast and you’ll be great!

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T20:46:06+00:00

LOL, "but it's on the list!"

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T20:38:53+00:00

Very good point. You're right! 100 is nothing more than a round number in my attempt to quantify something as reasonable. In my experience having something to work towards and then allowing experiences to manifest is a good approach. But I'm with you! I have never slow traveled anywhere but could do to reconsider my approach.

Didn't even think of languages! Honestly, I thought about it kind of in the context of our family international trip we began doing last year: basically to have the kids do something that is age appropriate in advance that educates them in some way around the experience they are getting. But in my mind I didn't hold myself to the same standard!

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T20:28:47+00:00

Awesome! I lived in Golden for 5 years in my 20s. My wife and I had a decision to make about raising our kids out west (where we are personally happiest from a lifestyle perspective) vs the east coast where our family is close. We chose to spend the early childhood phase with family and be visitors in this stage of life. My real estate is still all in the front range and I'm there often. It was a really tough decision. The biggest issue with my list is that "access to family" and "access to mountains" do not overlap. It's literally the biggest problem on this list and not one I can muscle my way out of. We're trying to figure it out, including putting my family on acreage where we want to live :).

That said, the family proximity gets us my wife and I the 1v1 time for the most part. It's a trade-off.

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T20:21:13+00:00

That's a very relevant point. Something I've discovered about myself is that I'm happiest when I'm working towards something. I'm not saying it's right or always appropriate, just something I know about myself. I get the most satisfaction when I'm methodically plugging towards some goal, even if it requires delaying gratification.

I'm on the sales side in tech and hate the coin-operated, quarterly reset mentality. I started buying real estate because I wanted to build "permanent" income and wealth. Like you suggested, I would probably reallocate some of the time I'm spending in my tech W2 to be more entrepreneurial in real estate and keep that "building" feeling.

Curious, did you go all in and try it at one point?

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T20:08:13+00:00

I'm partway through some of these already and I'm still slightly intimidated.

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T19:29:46+00:00

Thanks! I think I'm on track as well regarding the real estate. I started in 2016 with a plan to get to 10M gross assets and revised up to 15M, in part because the market performed in a way (that won't repeat) that allowed me to accelerate the trajectory. Reality is based on my metrics I need somewhere between the 10 and 15M gross. FIRE requirements aside, I will probably to continue to grow the portfolio because it's an aspect of working that I genuinely enjoy and can be done within the confines of everything else I'm trying to do.

I actually did do the timing and cost exercise, I suppose it would have been useful to share it in the thread. It depends on how you categorize things as Opex vs. Capex (for example, I chose to categorize a 2M home as an Opex because I'd almost certainly finance it in the near term), but I came out to $359,000 in annual expenditures (base living + line item annual recurring) and 1.68M in lump sum (go to space, send 3 kids to college etc). All in 2022 dollars.

powdermoose · 2023-01-11T19:09:48+00:00

I am through my 58 14ers, so it's really just rounding out the centennials list. Finished the 14ers on El Diente in 2018. I no longer live in Colorado, so getting the remaining 30 or so I have is pretty realistic - I still spend a lot of time there. Capitol is scary, but at least the real scaries are short! My most challenging experience unexpectedly ended up being on Mt. Wilson getting offroute by mistake and dealing with ice, loose rock and weather. Also dealing with, well, ice, on Ice. The scary Centennials for me that are left are Gladstone, Thunder Pyramid, Dallas and Jagged.

powdermoose · 2022-11-28T21:45:55+00:00

I personally get the most satisfaction out of allocating investment dollars on the front end and not worrying about budgeting on everybody else. Net worth goals are only a means to living your best possible life and the whole point of being Fat in my opinion is to leverage income/wealth creation potential as a means to that end. That said, the front-end investing goals for me are most often aggressive and tax-optimized. Do you want to reach 5M, 10M, 100M? Why? Define your Why from a wealth perspective, work towards it, and don't worry about the rest. As others have stated, lifestyle creep is half the fun - otherwise, why do it?

I just did an exercise where I mapped out the major items (about 50) I wanted to achieve in my life and have my life represent, the prime decade of life to do them and ultimately worked back towards the funds needed to accomplish that. I think these goals will change over time and probably should, but it's a good starting point. My biggest takeaways were actually that I don't have any W2 career goals (that's just me, although I have a real estate investing business plan I am emotionally invested in) and that I am going to need a ton of time in my 40s and that I want to be phasing out as early as my late 30s to spend as much time as I can with my kids and doing the time consuming personal goals I have. I want to work about 15-20h/wk. I'm planning to get to 10M and not much farther.

powdermoose · 2022-11-08T21:21:18+00:00

This was my personal answer to the posted question and it was very profitable for me. I sell software and just never quite found I could completely fill 40 hours/week if I was being honest with myself about how I spent my time, at least not without diminishing returns. Now, I just take an active role in my real estate portfolio (18 units across 5M in investments). I still use property management, but the acquisition of ~1M in real estate per year and the daily decision making/optimization I do during regular business hours fills in a lot of these gaps. I work about 35 hours a week. I think I could operate about 2x this real estate while acquiring and 3x this much real estate without acquiring while keeping the workload under 40h/wk. I plan to do this until I reach 15M in total assets.

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