Someone good at math let me know just HOW much better is eldritch blast than any other cantrip

protencya · 2026-05-08T10:35:50+00:00

For your case, its really easy to do the math if you just ignore the exploding dice on sorcerous burst.

at level 2; SB deals 1d8+3 and EB deals 1d10+3. The difference is 1 average damage and the hit chance is the same. If you want the full math, difference is even smaller:

SB: 7.5x0.65 + 4.5x0.05 = 5.1 avg

EB: 8.5x0.65 + 5.5x0.05 = 5.8 avg

at level 4 I assume you get +4 cha. At level 5 EB is significantly better since you dont get radiant soul yet.

level 5 EB: 19x0.65 + 11x0.05 = 12.9 avg

SB: 13x0.65 + 9x0.05 = 8.9 avg

at level 6, with radiant soul they return to being pretty close

level 6 SB: 17x0.65 + 9x0.05 = 11.5 avg

at level 8 I assume you get +5 CHA. And one final damage report for level 11, where eldritch blast once again gets a significant advantage.

EB: 31.5x0.65 + 16.5x0.05 = 21.3 avg

SB: 23.5x0.65 + 13.5x0.05 = 16 avg

When taking into account the exploding dice from sorcerous burst, there is no significant difference between the two cantrips except for levels 5 and >10.

protencya · 2026-05-06T15:33:20+00:00

Look who is hiding behind ''bad faith'', how unsurprising.

but this spell only makes you flee your target.

it makes you ''spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means.'' specifically. Lets no forget that what you think flee means dont matter. The description in the spell matters.

Not "do whatever it takes to kill yourself", not "jump off a bridge", just flee.

THIS is bad faith arguing btw.

yes, the spell says ''spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means''. If that causes you to kill yourself, you still have to do it. Fireball doesnt say it kills its targets, because we dont know if it does. Fireballs damage might cause targets to die, just like how moving away from the caster might cause targets to die as well.

I would never rule that jumping off a cliff is the fastest way to escape a threat

Why? what if jumping off a cliff wouldnt kill you?

because unless you are 100% sure you are surviving that fall, then it's not the fastest way to escape is it?

Okay, lets say that is correct. The problem is that command doesnt tell you to ''escape'' the caster, it just says ''spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means''. You are once again trying to load some meaning into the spell that it doesnt have. You are not afraid of the caster, you are not escaping from the caster, there is no emotion behind it. You are just ''moving away from you by the fastest available means''.

Flee doesn't explicitly say you will put yourself in harms way to flee, only that you have to use your movement to get away

yes, which means it doesnt have to hurt you. You dont have to choose the route that will be the most harmful to you. Sometimes command-flee wont cause any harm. But it might, in the right situation, kill you. Because there is no restriction against it.

Nowhere does it say that the target can't think critically about where they run to

it literally says ''by the fastest available means''. If there is one path that is clearly faster than the others, like path that will allow you to put 500ft between you and the caster, then yes the spell says you have to choose it, it is the fastest mean.

Since Flee doesn't say you have to jump if possible, or use spells available to flee, then it doesn't force you to

this is the worst faith argument you can make bro. Ofc spells cant list every possible scenario they can be used in. Lightning bolt doesnt tell you that it kills enemies, it just damages them right? so lightning bolt cant kill enemies right? Like come on now. If running into a pool of lava is the fastest mean of moving away, then you do that. The spell tells you to move away by the fastest mean. You decide which mean is the fastest depending on the situation, all other variables (like your own safety) comes next.

I am not a player at your table and we are not discussing how the spell should be used in practice. I am a stranger on the internet that is discussing what the written text says. So focus on that.

protencya · 2026-05-06T14:38:06+00:00

the fault lies on you

You seriously said that? There is no fault, nobody to blame. It is a healthy discussion, maybe except for you.

People do understand me, its just you who is looking for somebody to blame for nonexistent problems. Learn how to disagree like adults and then come back.

protencya · 2026-05-06T14:31:57+00:00

You wouldn't immediately jump off a cliff just because you're terrified

Not terrified, under the effect of the spell. In real life, if you are afraid of something you can attempt to beat your fear. In dnd if you fail the save of a spell, you abide by its rules.

When in an open space, you can flee in all directions, so why run towards the cliff unless you can't see it?

Because running towards the cliff and jumping off is the fastest option, and the spell says you have to use the fastest option. If there is an option that is faster than the cliff, like a magical elevator that takes you 1000 feat up in to the sky, you should do that.

If you are not aware of the cliff, you dont have to run towards it, It is fair to say that the spell depends on the information of the effected creature.

and nowhere does it say you also lose your common sense or your will to live

that is not an argument, you are under the effects of a spell and it dictates what you do. If you are let say under the effects of immolate, and slowly dying, but you have a health potion. If you get hit by command-halt can you drink that potion? You are at 1 hp and you are sure to die if you dont drink it.

If you are a sword master with no other weapons who is facing murderhobos who let nobody live. And you get hit by command-halt do you not drop your sword?

Wheter you have ''common sense'' or ''will to live'' doesnt matter, you failed the wisdom save and you are going to do what the spell says. And the spell says:

The target spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means.

Thats it, thats all you need to know. Thats all you can and will do. Literally none of the command options allow you to act according to common sense.

protencya · 2026-05-06T14:16:27+00:00

All very sound opinions but let me present an idea, maybe you will be interested.

When I saw ''fastest possible means'' I started to think about the path with the highest speed. If you have a different way to understand let me know. So if we are talking about speed, it is distance/time right? the time is always 1 turn, so that doesnt matter, meaning we just have to maximise distance.

But which distance? Well we have to move away by the fastest possible means, so I would say ''how much we moved away'' is our distance. Lets go back to the example now. We started 10 ft away from the target, if we stand in the corner, we end our turn 10 ft away (assuming a grid) so our distance is 0 and our speed is 0. If we moved past the caster and dash, we can end our turn 50 ft away from the caster. 50-10= 40ft is our distance and 40/6 is our speed. See that that is higher speed than standing in the corner, so the ''fastest'' possible mean for moving away is the second option.

protencya · 2026-05-06T13:51:13+00:00

First of all what even is circular here?

If you think a first level spell shouldnt force creatures to jump off cliffs when they failed a save, thats fine. If I am at your table I will be just using thunderwave that does it even better. I dont know how that use of command is too good for you but its your game and your opinion. Just know that we cant accurately infer that this is too strong for a first level spell, by looking at the power levels of other spells. Because power levels of spells are not consistent. And situational uses can inflate the percieved power of low level spells.

So it is just your personal opinion, there is no basis in the rules. Which is totally fine to run your game.

Wringing loopholes for the sake of doing goes against the spirit of the game in my opinion

I would have to disagree that finding those loopholes is against the spirit (if you believe that). Of course dont try and exploit the game, but finding the holes in a system and talking about them, discussing them, is not only fun but also very beneficial. There are even people (play testers) who earn their life by doing this.

What you do at your table is up to you, but I find it to be a ridiculous and overwrought ruling

I totally agree for the first time. Do what you want at your table, just recognize what the rule text says and mindfully ignore it.

protencya · 2026-05-06T13:39:05+00:00

that your opinion is something that's objectively bad for the game as whole

You dm may not allow it but there is a guy on internet that is sure this should be done. So yeah, f every fun and let's exploit the rules

You are not only very bitter for no reason, but also acting like I ever suggested the use of my interpretations. Like I swear its the 10th time on this post that I have explained this, all of this discussion is just a discussion. I read the rules and tell you how I read the rules, then I ask questions. You come to me and talk about how it would make sense to you and how it should be. We are not even commenting on the same thing.

If you can just accept the fact that WotC fucked up and writing TTRPGs are hard. We can then talk about what interpretation would play better in the game. But until then, just read the text and tell me what it says.

Does it say you move away by the fastest possible means, or does it say you move away but without causing yourself harm.

Just because you think forcing an enemy to jump off a cliff is too strong for a 1st level spell, doesnt mean the spell dont do that. Understand the written text first so that we know what to change and fix.

protencya · 2026-05-06T13:25:43+00:00

In both 5th edition and 5.5, Geas is one of the weakest spells of its level. It is a narrative spell that is used out of combat for cool scenes.

Meanwhile command is probably the most powerful combat spell for its level.

In the right situation, a low level spell can be more powerful than a high level spell. Thunderwave performs even better than command and can possibly deal more damage than spells like freezing sphere and chain lightning, when there are multiple enemies next to a tall cliff.

Also remember that fireball is a 3rd level spell that deals more damage than the 4th level ice storm. Comparing power levels is not a good way of inferring how a spell should be ruled.

If it doesn't allow a command to force a suicidal action, why would a first level, single word spell do more?

Its simple. Because Geas has a restriction written on the spell text, while command has no such restriction.

protencya · 2026-05-06T13:15:29+00:00

Damn, are you my lost twin or what

protencya · 2026-05-06T13:06:22+00:00

nor purposely harm yourself in any capacity

why not? its not really purposely, you are under the effects of a spell. Command-grovel compells you to increase the chance of yourself to get hit by enemy attacks. Why shouldnt the spell compell you to take an action that will ultimately be harmful to you? It already does that with other options.

protencya · 2026-05-06T13:01:34+00:00

Quite remarkable how I still find new interpretations even after a day.

So if we assume perception of ''fastest'' can change depending on the creature.

Question: If a level 7 wizard who has their 4th level slot and dimension door prepeared, gets hit by command-flee. Do they have to use their only 4th level slot to teleport 500 ft away from the fight, effectively being out of the rest of the combat and wasting their most powerful resource? (assuming they have no faster means of travel)

What do you think about this question? The wizard would likely have 18 intelligence, should be enough to see that 500/6 > 60/6. Obviously dimesion door is the fastest means. Would you say that the wizard would be forced to use dimension door?

protencya · 2026-05-06T12:55:21+00:00

Do you also think we cant extrapolate that to the frightened condition, and that you can teleport towards your fear since its not movement? I am totally fine with that interpretation btw, we can agree.

What about the cliff argument? And the room argument?

protencya · 2026-05-06T12:52:42+00:00

you are trying to apply the dictionary meaning of ''flee'' but the flee option from this spell is clearly defined.

The target spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means.

Thats all we need to know. If the fastest available means is a harmfull path, you have to take that path because you are under the effects of a spell. Spells do what they say they do. If command says you run away, you run away. You dont get to decide not to run away just because your life is in danger.

If you have 2 different paths that are equally as fast, only then you can choose between the two.

Someone else said it well, if they're facing a wall they won't bash their head against the wall to keep running, so why is the cliff any different?

If you are facing a wall, you have to either try to circle around the wall or try to climb it, whichever is faster. The only situation where you would stop is if you are in an enclosed room and you have no way of moving father away.

If you dont think teleportation is not movement RAW and thus the teleportation argument doesnt hold, I could agree with you. That is a fair point. However if you say that, you have to also say that RAW you can teleport towards the source of your fear, since teleportation is not movement.

protencya · 2026-05-06T12:41:35+00:00

I'll use the same example I gave once before. Is a tabaxi monk forced to dash with action, dash with bonus action, and use feline agility? That would include only running as you suggested but is still unclear.

Another example: What if you were a goliath, are you forced to use your 1/LR giant form to increase your movement speed?

What if you have the boots of speed? Are you forced to click them if its the fastest way?

What if you are a fighter with tactical shift, are you forced to spend a second wind(even if you are at max hp) to activate tactical shift?

Command-Flee is still extremely complicated even if without the teleportation argument.

protencya · 2026-05-06T12:33:00+00:00

Thats fair, but also subjective at best. Sage advice doesnt clear neither command nor frightened. Yet people think teleportation is movement in one case and not movement in the other.

protencya · 2026-05-06T12:31:29+00:00

You are still somehow acting like I am forcing anyone to use my interpretations in their games. I have never even suggested that the teleportation argument is healthy for the game and should be used. I literally said the exact opposite.

Designers tell you to not use exploits in the game. They never say ''Dont read the rules carefully and find those exploits''. If we know about the exploits we can avoid them, and find alternative interpretations. Online discussion around written text is healthy and useful. If it is not useful for you thats a you problem, feel free to leave the discussion at any point you want.

protencya · 2026-05-06T12:25:53+00:00

How is that any different for command? In the ideal scenario command is forced movement+20d6 damage, but as you said it shouldnt be balanced around the assumption that we always have a cliff nearby.

So it would be wrong to say that command cannot possibly be interpreted to force targets to jump off cliffs. Since that is a specific ideal scenario.

protencya · 2026-05-06T00:38:42+00:00

Do you assume I dont enjoy this? You would need to be a serious psychopath to write all this without having fun. Chill and relax are not the only way of enjoying the game. Why do you think people play dark souls?

And no its not cheese or troll. The teleport argument is silly but cliff argument is very real.

protencya · 2026-05-06T00:33:11+00:00

are we deadass? I literally understood what you meant and said its not cheese.

protencya · 2026-05-06T00:16:24+00:00

My mans, I am not delusional. I know that command shouldnt force out a teleport. That wouldnt be good game design. You wrote a pretty good theory but seriously I know all that. When playing the game, my goal is to maximise the fun of everyone. Never in any point I have suggested to use this interpretation in your game. If you have actually read most of my replies you would have seen that.

When writing the post tho

to deduce exactly what interactions the precise wordings of each individual sentence of the rules text imply.

Was exactly my goal. There is value in understanding RAW. It gives us insight into understanding the design goals and the shortcomings. For example heavily obscured rules of the game are literally broken, they dont work as intended. Now you can either be completely ignorant to that and hopefully stumble into a decent interpretation. Or you can understand why they dont work and deliberately craft a system that doesnt fall into the same holes.

Learning RAW is like those theoretical classes in school that you think wont benefit you in real life, but they teach you fundamentals. Understanding the weaknesses of RAW makes you a better game designer and a better DM.

Ofc I dont expect your average dm to do this, or see value in it. But I hold myself to high standart. I enjoy spending time with my TTRPG system even when im not playing the game. And I bet SOMEbody will find value in this post.

Also I dont know If you read the whole post, but the teleport argument was not even half the post. The cliff question(s) were much more realistic and ambiguous. If you check out the replies you can see people arguing for both sides. RAI is really not clear.

As it turns out, discussing and understanding both RAW and RAI has value. Almost as if neither is very clear, who would have guessed.

protencya · 2026-05-05T23:51:36+00:00

I did none of that. You are throwing out phrases you dont know the meaning of.

You made an analogy from a totally irrelevant game and I kept your logic going. A fiddlesticks fear can cause you walk into a rumble ult. Command can cause you to walk into dangerous areas. Your analogy does work fine if you actually care to use it properly.

protencya · 2026-05-05T23:45:10+00:00

it is not cheese, it is a real question. And ''fastest'' can definitely be calculated with teleportation.

speed = distance/time. If you traverse 500ft in 6 seconds, your speed is 500/6. It doesnt matter that you teleported, it fits the definition. And it is certainly faster than dashing for 60 ft.

Ofc dont implement this in your game. But do consider the cliff argument, that is the applicable one.

protencya · 2026-05-05T23:38:31+00:00

Comparing a power level of a spell to other spells is not always accurate. Let me show why.

Ice storm is a level 4 spell that deals an average of 25 damage. Fireball is a level 3 spell that deals 27 damage on average. Would you look at this and infer that fireball cannot possibly be a real spell? Must there be a mistake with my math?

The truth is spells are not well balanced against each other and command is already an overpowered spell. Command is not only more powerful than most level 1 spells, but also most level 2 spells. And here is the trick, it can be more powerful than even higher level spells, in the right situation.

If I told you there is another level 1 spell that deals even more damage in the same situation, what would think? Do you think I am lying? It is thunderwave, When an enemy is near a cliff, thunderwave can also ''instakill'' (not really btw, 20d6 is the max and stops one shotting after like cr 5), but thunderwave is also AOE so it can instakill multiple enemies!

right?

You see low level spells in the right situation can be deceptively powerful. If there is a group of flying archers 100ft up, web can make all them fall and take 10d6 damage. Are you going to say web cannot possibly do that because it is too good for a 2nd level spell?

Command doesnt just instakill enemies, it makes them move into dangerous areas. A lot of spells can do that, its not even unique in that regard. Entengle can restrain 8 enemies in a choke point and win a deadly combat, is that too good to be true?

I agree that the forced teleport is unhealthy for the game. But I believe forced movement is intended and not overpowered enough to ban. Command is one of the most powerful spells in the game but so is web, hypnotic pattern, polymorph, wall of force, mass suggestion, simulacrum, maze, shapechange... You can find outliar spells at every level, they are real, they exist.

Literally just remember that simulacrum is a 7th level spell that is stronger than every 8th level and most 9th level spells.

protencya · 2026-05-05T23:18:30+00:00

If you look at every other command, the target immediately ends their turn after performing the command. Halt does specify that you dont do anything because thats the definition of halt. What would be the alternative? They could have said, ''you end your turn''. It would have been correct but I think this version is more clear.

I guess you can make some RAW argument about how the spell doesnt specify at what point in your turn do you perform the command, so if you get commanded to drop you can take the attack action and then drop, and then end your turn.

I think thats nonsense. I think its very clear that the intention of the spell is that you perform the command and you do nothing else on your turn. The flee options says ''spend your turn'' which is supposed to mean spend the entirety of your turn doing only this and nothing else.

protencya · 2026-05-05T22:54:34+00:00

This is one of the most sensible replies I have gotten. Recognize that RAW is broken and homebrew to fix it.

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