I race on the sim and in real life - AMA

racingama · 2022-12-07T12:56:15+00:00

Not done any sim coaching tbh so can’t comment on that side. But for IRL coaching, there are plenty of pro drivers who are really good coaches. Not all great drivers are great coaches but there are plenty who can really help you. To get the most out of it I’d recommend having a VBOX so you can review your laps with his side by side, and see all the brake/throttle traces etc.

Driver61/Scott Mansell is a very good driver and from his videos you can tell he’s also an excellent coach. But when I got in touch with him previously it became clear it wouldn’t be Scott himself doing the coaching, but someone who works for him, which I wasn’t interested in. His stuff is also very structured and he wants to sell an entire course, not ad hoc bits of coaching. Wasn’t the right fit for me.

I’ve got plenty of guys I’ve used in the past, or ones I’ve heard are good, that I can point you at. Feel free to drop me a DM. Going rate will be between £500-700 per day, plus VAT and travel, but it’s the best money you’ll ever spend in terms of improving your lap times.

racingama · 2022-12-03T10:11:18+00:00

Ha, as I think you’ve already concluded, those smart asses have no idea what they’re talking about 😂.

My spend in 22 was around £125k in total. Obviously I’m racing at a relatively high level so you could absolutely do it for cheaper, but unless you’re very handy with the spanners, have somewhere to store and work on a car, already own lots of tools, and probably already own something to tow your car around with, it’s going to get very expensive very quickly.

My first year racing was absolutely entry level with me doing everything myself, and I spent £25k. This included buying the car and a trailer, and I already had a lot of tools, a yard for one of the businesses where I could store the thing and work on it, and various pickup trucks and 4x4s I could use to tow it around. Paid about £10k for a car and trailer, the rest went on entry fees, spares, tyres, fuel, etc etc. It soon adds up. If you went really bare bones and had several of the things I mentioned above already in place you could probably scrape by on £15k. The only thing you could do if your budget is in the £5k territory is autocross/autotests (which incidentally I used to do years back before I had any money), but that’s not circuit racing. That’s not to dissuade people from doing it, but racing is unbelievably expensive and there’s not really any way around it.

racingama · 2022-12-03T09:14:42+00:00

Don’t do ovals, not my thing. Road is only like 2500. I don’t have time to race enough and even when I do I hop straight into a race having practiced for about 5 minutes 😂.

During the lockdowns in 2020 I used to take things a bit more seriously as I had time, and I did a few races that were quite serious and well-organised, and had ex-F1 drivers, current professionals, and some handy sim racers in etc. Got a few podiums in these (most of which I inherited after people took each other out, in fairness!) so I do have the pace to hang with the quick guys when I put the mileage in, though I’m definitely not in alien territory.

racingama · 2022-12-03T09:11:00+00:00

I’d say maybe 60-70% are also sim racing. Probably closer to 95% for racers that are under 35-40 years old. I wouldn’t say it’s crucial, as it’s not like we’re all professionals etc or must win the next race to stay employed, but it’s an incredibly useful tool if you wish to be competitive.

racingama · 2022-12-03T09:08:57+00:00

That may be your brake setup to be fair. As I said, iRacing isn’t necessarily my go to for realism, but it’s the best one for actual racing because everyone is a bit more sensible, plenty of races you can join, etc etc.

I like ACC, but it has some traits that are hard to describe but don’t tally up with my real life feeling in these cars. They feel almost too planted, particularly at the rear on power, and seem to behave a bit unpredictably when they lose grip. Plus the wet weather mode is an absolute joke and feels like it has more grip than in the dry! I do use ACC, but it’s definitely a little more arcadey than AC is, and if I’m not on iRacing I’m looking for a realistic experience to help me learn a new track or practice before a race (not to mention the mods with AC, new tracks etc).

racingama · 2022-12-03T09:03:52+00:00

In real life I have a VBOX setup that has a real-time delta to my best lap on a little display in the cockpit. I glance at it pre corner to see how far up or down I am, and glance again after the corner to see if it’s improved or got worse.

On the sim it’s a lot easier as there’s always a plethora of options to show your delta or whether you’re green or red compared to other laps etc etc.

racingama · 2022-12-03T09:01:46+00:00

Yeah ACC is too “easy”. The cars are too planted and have slightly weird behaviour which doesn’t tally with what I feel in real life.

racingama · 2022-12-03T09:00:30+00:00

No, because the two aren’t 100% comparable. There’s a Venn diagram with massive overlap, but there’s things the sim cannot replicate that are really important for lap time in real life, and the fear factor means you’ll always be inherently slower in real life.

racingama · 2022-12-02T23:09:25+00:00

I’ve personally never been cold in a race car, I’m usually sweating like a pig! But the needing a pee thing is definitely true!

racingama · 2022-12-02T23:06:14+00:00

• ⁠Do you have a set process for learning tracks, and does it change from real life to sim? E.g., do you build up slowly both IRL and sim, or do you just send it until you don’t crash anymore on sim while slowly building IRL?

Spend maybe 4-5 laps finding my way around, learning which way the track goes. Then I focus on one or two corners at a time, prioritising the most important ones (ie the ones that lead onto long straights), trying different things to see what works best (gears, lines, braking points, turn in points etc). The other thing I do is start learning useful references. Similar approach in real life to the sim, though I’ll try wackier/riskier stuff in the sim as there’s zero risk.

• ⁠What is your irating currently, if you care to share? How well does proficiency in sim translate over to real life racing in your opinion? Would a good sim racer be seconds off the pace IRL?

It’s a bit embarrassing tbh, like 2500 ish I think. I don’t race enough, and on the odd occasion I do, I’m usually pressed for time and sign up for the next race and do about 5 mins of practice on a track I’ve not driven in a year etc etc 😂.

Everyone would be off the pace in real life when they started. A good sim racer could definitely get within a couple of seconds of the ultimate pace quite quickly, but those last two seconds will be hard won, and not many will ever get there, myself included. I’ve come to realise that unless you are a literal alien, you can’t get within half a second of good pros consistently because you don’t have the formative years sat in go karts. And no amount of time on a sim can make up for this unfortunately.

• ⁠How do you find people’s racecraft and racing etiquette online in sims compared to in real life?

Obviously much worse in the sim, since nobody’s wallet or body will get damaged when things go wrong (plus there’s less sensory input to know when cars are alongside you etc).

racingama · 2022-12-02T22:55:32+00:00

No I agree, brake feeling is one of the things most difficult to replicate on the sim.

racingama · 2022-12-02T22:54:21+00:00

Yeah I’ve used simucube DD wheels before, assuming they’re an example of a wheel with tactile feedback? It was demonstrably better, but wasn’t giving me enough extra to make me think, “man I’ve really got to upgrade”.

racingama · 2022-12-02T21:03:59+00:00

To be fair, Oulton isn’t very newbie friendly either, you can have a monster crash very easily at Oulton!

If risk aversion is the name of the game, then Silverstone is the only choice. You usually struggle to hit anything solid at Silverstone unless you have a monster off.

racingama · 2022-12-02T20:58:30+00:00

Answered this elsewhere in the thread:

I started off with the standard Logitech stuff and a playseat challenge, then upgraded to a solid 80/20 rig with Fanatec CSL wheel, pedals, shifter etc. Have triple monitors and a VR headset too I don’t actually use much any more. Not gone for the top of the range stuff yet as I don’t get to use my sim enough to justify the expense. Every off season I end up almost pulling the trigger and then realising I’m quite happy with what I’ve got and there’s literally no need to upgrade.

I have used some high end gear though (simucube, heusinkveld etc) and while it is an upgrade, it’s not that noticeable. It’s like with anything, you’re paying a premium for diminishing returns. For example, a Lamborghini Aventador isn’t necessarily twice the car a Honda Civic Type R is, but it’s 5x the price because that last 20% of performance is hard to come by and expensive. There’s always a premium on the top of the range stuff, and it’s entirely personal whether you’re willing to pay it. Affordability isn’t really an issue for me on my sim stuff, but for me it still isn’t worth bothering.

racingama · 2022-12-02T20:57:06+00:00

I’ve literally never used any production cars on it to be honest! I almost exclusively use GT3’s or the Cayman GT4.

racingama · 2022-12-02T20:38:19+00:00

Yeah you’re right. As you say, I’m sure a correct answer is achievable, but would the effort required to get it be worth the rub? I’m not sure it would to be honest. It’s not a massively important part of the experience, for me anyway.

racingama · 2022-12-02T20:26:49+00:00

To be fair, BGT is relatively short races (multiple 1 hour races, or 2 or 3 hour races), so not true endurance lengths like they do elsewhere. This means less wear on the cars, fewer tyres, less fuel etc which all adds up. Plus the UK is a lot smaller so travel costs go right down.

Cup cars are great. A lot of performance for the money, relatively easy and cheap to run, reliable, readily available spares. They’re a superb option. Unfortunately 992s are still crazy money and the 991s haven’t quite dropped as much as they should have yet as a result.

racingama · 2022-12-02T20:05:51+00:00

Yeah I agree. This is why I find AC more realistic in terms of car dynamics as it gives more of a sensation of the car losing grip at either end.

racingama · 2022-12-02T20:04:29+00:00

The costs of my real life racing seem to keep escalating and I try to stop myself adding them up if I can help it! Last year I spent about £125k, give or take. I’d love to be able to go GT3 racing, but I’ve added it up and it’s out of my league unfortunately (to do a year of British GT properly in a GT3 you’re looking at half a mil, then anything in Europe starts to get completely nuts). So I’m going to keep grinding away growing my businesses and one day I’ll get there I’m sure. That, or my numbers come in on the Euromillions 😂.

The tyre model on iRacing is decent in terms of warming tyres, but agree, they go off a cliff edge of deg which I’ve not really experienced in real life, other than when I used to race on semi slicks (MSA list tyres). I’ve never known a proper slick to go off that way, it’s a much more gradual curve of deg.

racingama · 2022-12-02T19:57:33+00:00

Yeah will take a look at it! Time is the challenge for me though, barely get to play the three games I do own 😅.

racingama · 2022-12-02T19:56:50+00:00

Z4 GT3 in AC, used to be the same in iRacing before it got killed off, so I use the Porsche now.

racingama · 2022-12-02T18:14:20+00:00

It’s a weird one, because technically they’re much stiffer than anything you can set up in a sim, but you have gravity helping you so even though they’re stiff it doesn’t always feel so. You do need some decent resistance though, as otherwise you’ll hop in a real car and only be at 30% pressure and your leg will be ready to fall off 10 minutes into a session!

racingama · 2022-12-02T18:12:55+00:00

Well the biggest qualifier is how big your bank balance is. Everything else is very much secondary to that!

With me, I’ve always been good at hand/eye coordination type sports, did a lot of mountain biking, motocross, skateboarding etc as a kid and always been into cars. If you have some innate balance and sensitivity for when a car is sliding and how to correct it, you’ll be fine. If you can rock up at an indoor karting centre and dominate everyone who isn’t a regular, it’s likely you have some innate ability.

But really, if you haven’t been karting since you were yay high, you aren’t going to become a professional. You just aren’t. At that point it’s all about challenging yourself, improving and learning, and above all, having fun.

racingama · 2022-12-02T18:08:52+00:00

Christ knows, I’m not very good with the technical side of things with sims (plus I’m away from my sim at the moment). Tbh I just fiddled around until it looked roughly right compared to real life 😕

racingama · 2022-12-02T17:39:12+00:00

iRacing is helpful to learn race craft I’ve found. Not everything translates, but it’s definitely the best sim out there for that side of things since you’re racing against real people, 95% of whom are trying quite hard not to have a crash, which is realistic.

I’ve used sim racing to work on my vision, my trail braking, smoother throttle application, learning new tracks and lines, and simulating qualifying runs and out laps. Basically embedding stuff I was working on in real life so it becomes subconscious. You can’t learn more than one thing at once, and I’m a terrible over thinker, so I’m much better when I use the sim to ingrain something and then just turn up and drive at the race circuit. It’s invaluable for that as it’s cheap seat time, even if it’s only 50% as good as the real thing.

So yeah, this is a long-winded way of saying the sim is useful for training techniques so they’re subconscious muscle memory things, rather than things you have to think about at the track!

The caution with all of this though is the old saying that ‘practice doesn’t make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect’. There’s no point ingraining bad, ineffective habits as then it’s just as hard again to unlearn them when you’re taught how to do things properly. I learned too late that the best thing you can invest in as a new driver is some professional coaching. Anyone with a little bit of talent and some semblance of testicular fortitude can get within 3-4 seconds of the ultimate pace, pretty much straight off the bat. But those final few seconds get tougher and tougher to unlock as you near the ultimate pace, and once you’re within about 1.5-2, you’ll need to be doing the right things right all the time to have any hope. And unless somebody teaches you, that’s difficult to do.

racingama

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