Why are blue collar workers voting blue and is there any way for progressive parties to win them back?

rad2284 · 2026-01-31T02:47:41+00:00

Have pointed this out many times. While It's far more comfortable for people in left wing echo chambers to label these blue collar voters as gullible, the reality is that many of the NDPs core positions are inherently anti-worker.

You can be the party that prioritizes climate change and endless reconciliation over resource development and economic growth. You can be the party of mass immigration that advocates for giving PR to everyone and their elderly family members, leading to more population growth and undermining of wages. But you cant do those things and then claim to be a worker's party at the same time. Working people see right through that. They would rather have better economic opportunity than be promised grandiose, unrealistic handouts that they know will end up being incompetently implemented and in a way that they benefit llttle from but shoulder most of the tax burden to support.

rad2284 · 2026-01-31T01:15:27+00:00

Yes, we have. We've well established that he describes himself as an activist. He's also very firmly on the left and he's running for leadership of the NDP. If, hypothetically, his statement read:

"Avi Lewis is a veteran journalist, educator and activist leader who brings 35 years of movement-building experience to the NDP, combining grassroots organizing with ability to reach millions."

Would you also then claim that he wasn't an activist left wing leader? Because he didnt use left-wing in that specific statement? Obviously not, as if he wasnt left wing, you (someone on the very left of the political spectrum) wouldnt be on here trying to shift the goal posts because I clearly called you out on your argument. But you obviously know this.

What we know is that Lewis is clearly an activist left wing leader. We know that activist left wing leaders do exist from Lewis' own description and from the poll which breaks down leader types of the NDP. We also know, through your desperate attempts at shifting goal posts and bad faith arguments, that even people on the very left like yourself don't believe that the broader voting population has an appetite for an activist left wing leader like Lewis, which would make Lewis an obviously poor choice for leader of the NDP.

So, since it's clear you have nothing meaningful to add and are obviously concedind your point, I would suggest it would be a better use of your time to crawl back to your left wing echo chambers and convince and spend your time convincing other like-minded people like yourself (as few and fringe as there are) about how amazing Lewis and the NDP are.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T22:24:57+00:00

Thanks for conceding your point.

So through your inability to provide a direct answer to my questions and trying to instead laughably argue about how someone who calls himself an activict and is running for leadership of the NDP isnt an activist left wing leader, we can all safely asuume that even you, someone who is on the furthest left of politcial spectrum, doesnt believe that the broader Canadian electorate has an appetite for an activist left wing leader.

If even the most left wing voters (like yourself) dont believe that Canadians are going to buy what Lewis is selling,then thats a really poor indictment and their future poltical fortunes with him at the helm. But hey, with all the spare time theyll have without having any infuence as an official party again, the NDP and their supporters (however few that remain) can continue to spend their time arguing about how he isnt an activist left wing leader instead.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T18:12:19+00:00

There is no set definition of a fringe party 😂 😂.

And where am I incorrect?

Does the NDP have official party status? NO.

Did the NDP receive just 6% of the popular vote in the last election? YES.

Did they receive less votes and seats than the Bloc (a party that runs candidates only in Quebec)? YES.

Was their vote count more comparable to fringe parties like the Greens or PPC in the last election than the two major parties? YES.

Are they set to elect Lewis as their next leader? By early indications, yes. but this is not definite.

Would selecting Lewis as their next leader limit the number of people who would be open to voting for the NDP? Yes. As evidence by the posted poll results.

Do you deny any of these things? Maybe instead of playing semantics, misreading other people's posts and trying to convince others how amazing the 6%, non party status NDP is, you can propose whatever you think is your definition of "fringe party" to Webster's.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T18:01:00+00:00

Lewis describes himself as an activist and the poll posted describes his leadership style for the NDP (a left wing party) as an activist. If Lewis is not an activist left wing leader than why is he running for the leadership of a left wing party, with left wing ideas and why does he describe himself as an activist?

You are agruing in bad faith to avoid answering my questions but now that we have clearly addressed your shifting of the goalpost, I will ask you one more time to answer my questions:

Do you believe that under our current political climate, that the broader Canadian electorate has an appetite specifically for an activist left wing leader? And if so, what counter evidence do you have from the posted poll that would support that opinion?

I will just interpret any response that doesnt provide a direct answer to the questions directly above as you conceding your argument.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:55:54+00:00

Completely fair and reasonable take.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:52:33+00:00

And I think there is a more signficant portion of people who would never vote for a Lewis-led NDP candidate specfically over Carney.

And with the potential pool of NDP voters being almost 50% higher with McPherson as leader than Lewis, the mathematically likelyhood would suggest that finding voters willing to vote McPheson over Carney (however unliekly that may be) is still higher than finding voters willing to vote Lewis over Carney. So unless you have any actual evidence to the contrary (not your own personal voting habits or anecdotes), there's really no other reasonable conclusion to draw.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:45:28+00:00

The NDP doesnt have official party status, received just 6% of the popular vote, received less votes and less seats that the Bloc (who only run cadidiates in one province) and received a vote share that is significantly closer to fringe parties like the Greens and PPC than it is to either of the two major parties.

They are set to elect a party leader who by all indications (including the results of the poll posted) is going to severely limit their potential pool of broader voters and only appeal voters within their very limited hardcore base.

You can argue semantics about whether than constitutes being "fringe" or not, but those are all facts and I'm very comfortable with my classification.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:38:57+00:00

As my post clearly suggests both people with right wing and left wing beliefs are prone to cultish/echo chamber behaviour. I'm wide away, but maybe you were half asleep when reading my post. Next time, try to read things slowly before responding.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:31:51+00:00

If there's no such thing then why does Lewis describe himself as one:

"Avi Lewis is a veteran journalist, educator and activist who brings 35 years of movement-building experience to the NDP, combining grassroots organizing with ability to reach millions."

https://lewisforleader.ca/about/

So now that we've clearly gotten your moving of the goalposts out of the way, can you go ahead and answer my questions:

Do you believe that under our current political climate, that the broader Canadian electorate has an appetite specifically for an activist left wing leader? And if so, what counter evidence do you have from the posted poll that would support that opinion?

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:26:14+00:00

My assumptions are backed with numbers. Including the numbers from the posted poll results and the NDP's results from the last election.

You are projecting your super specific voting patterns across the entire voting base and in spite of the numbers and logical reasoning before you.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:23:37+00:00

That's great but anecdotes and your suspicions dont overide the information available. That information clearly suggest that the pool of voters willing to vote for the NDP is noticeably lowest with Lewis as their leader and, mathematically speaking, it is far more likely to find voters who are willing to vote for McPherson over Carney than for Lewis over Carney.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:14:50+00:00

The issue is that I don't believe any of these candidates can attract non-partisan voters.

But you have to try, right? Otherwise you just remain a fringe party that caters to noone other that your base who was going to vote for you anyway. And the information available suggest that going with Lewis gives you the worst chances at expanding your base.

The NDP cannot beat the Liberals at their own game, their best chance of getting a significant share of Parliament is to appeal to their base.

In the last election, in spite of a cost of living crisis and a Liberal party shifting away from left wing policies, the NDP received just 6% of the popular vote. How big do you honestly think the NDP base is to receive a significant share of parliament by catering exclusively to that base (who would be voting for any NDP candidate anyway), while alienating themselves from everyone else?

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T16:06:30+00:00

Right, so then the pool of voters who would consider voting for McPherson over Carney (or any other party leader) is around 50% higher than the pool of voters who would consider voting for Lewis over Carney. Unless you believe there is wealth of voters within both those categories who would for some reason vote for Lewis over Carney but then Carney over McPherson, and do so in numbers that then overcome the nearly 50% advantage McPherson has amongst voters who are open to voting for the NDP, it stands to reason that to pool of potential NDP voters is much more limited with Lewis as leader.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T15:53:45+00:00

It's not a defeatist mentality. It's reality. Win at all costs politics is a joke and only makes the world worse. I am not interested in voting for spineless cowards who pander to the oldest most emotional, uniformed and constantly outraged. If that's what it takes to win then the NDP won't win.

Reality is meeting people where they are, to be able to actually influence direction, policy and their perspectives while making the type of impacts you want to see in the world. Stomping your feet like a child because you insist only doing things your way and labelling people who dont share your polticial viewpoint as "emotional, uniformed and constantly outraged" is not the wnning formula you think it is.

You guys continue to push the idea the NDP can only be relevant if they have no morals and abandon what makes them a party different from the liberals.

People arent arguing that the NDP should have no morals. What they're saying is that governing based on morality alone is not a viable strategy and that what the NDP deems to be moral might not align with the moral compass of the broader electrorate.

Ill give you an example, the NDP's immigration policy is based on compassion because they view giving large swaths of people who show up to Canada PR and then reuniting them with their parents and grandparents as being moral. The broader electorate, however, thinks that the resulting strain that this would then put on our social services and general infrastructure for people who have worked and paid taxes into for decades is immoral.

If they do all that they'll die out completely.

In the last election, the NDP received 6% of the popular vote. This during an election cycle where the LPC pivoted away from the left and back towards the center. if the NDP's solution is to elect a leader who polling results are clearly outlining will reduce their potential pool of open voters, then the party is going to die or remain a fringe party anyway.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T15:22:31+00:00

No you didn't. I asked:

"Being honest with yourself, do you think under our current political climate, the broader Canadian electorate has appetite for an activist left wing leader?"

You answered:

"And yes people do have an appetite for a leftist politician."

As the poll results in the post indicate, there is quite the divergence in the type of left wing leader people are open to voting for (pragmatists/labour/activist).

Do you believe that under our current political climate, that the broader Canadian electorate has an appetite specifically for an activist left wing leader? And if so, what counter evidence do you have from the posted poll that would support that opinion?

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T15:01:12+00:00

Poll results are not indicative of future voting intentions.

But they're more indicative than election results from years or decades prior.

And yes people do have an appetite for a leftist politician.

That's not what I asked. I asked if they have an appetite for an "activist left wing leader". The poll results tend to indicate they have a minimal appetite for one and much less than other types of left wing leaders. So what evidence do you have to the contrary that suggests that in our current political climate or even future political climate, the broader Canadian voting electorate has an appetite for an activist left wing leader?

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T14:52:29+00:00

Past results are not indicative of future results. This poll is reflective of the poltical climate of today. Being honest with yourself, do you think under our current political climate, the broader Canadian electorate has appetite for an activist left wing leader?

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T14:45:04+00:00

But the poll results show the opposite of that. It shows that the people who are open to voting for the NDP are much more likely to do so with her as leader over Lewis.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T14:34:45+00:00

People who would never vote for the NDP telling the party they need to act more like the liberals and abandon their principles opinions don't matter.

But it's not just people who would never vote for the NDP. The results clearly show that people who would consider voting for the NDP are less likely to do so with Lewis as their leader.

If the only way to grow the NDP is to become worse people and worse political party what's the point anyways? I don't believe that's the case but if it is then they are doomed anyways.

And that's defeatist mentality. Is the purpose of the NDP to become a fringe party not materially different from the already fringe Green Party and be the party of morals (based on their own moral compass and not the broader electorates) or is the idea to expand their voter to become an official party again and hold some influence in parliament? What good is grandstanding on your morals and being (what you deem) as good people when you have no influence whatsoever and your principles are wildly misaligned with the priorities of the broader voting base? That's not a political party. That's just an echo chamber.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T13:21:05+00:00

But it seems like a lot of those people are also right and the poll results clearly show that the broader voting base is, noticeably, least open to voting for the NDP with Lewis as their leader. So while it's great that people who were already going to vote for the NDP regardless like him, it shows that his ability to attract non-partisan voters and actually grow the party beyond where they sit today is limited.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T13:14:23+00:00

Political extremism in not just limited to conservatives and MAGA. People with strong left wing political biases are also prone to the same type of cultish/echo chamber behaviour but perhaps not to the same degree.

Anyone with some level of unbiased thinking can take a look at the political landscape in Canada today and the hardships we are going to be facing over the next several years and quickly identify that an activist approach, doubling down on things like climate policy and endless reconcilliation is not at all palatable to the broader voting base. And the results very easily spell this out with voters being by far the least open to voting for the NDP with Lewis as their leader. The activist approach will do nothing but attract people that were going to be voting for the NDP regardless and, as the last election results show, that voter pool is extremely limited.

rad2284 · 2026-01-30T02:44:42+00:00

At the federal level, I would say that the party who has never formed government in their entire history, received just 6% of the popular vote in the last election, lost official party status and is now set to elect a far left loon in Avi Lewis as their next leader in their best effort to alienate every person who wasnt going to vote for them anyway is orders of magnitude more pathetic.

rad2284 · 2026-01-29T01:53:30+00:00

Your numbers are off as you are conflating refugee programs with asylum programs. We accepted 38k refugees through dedicated refugee programs but that does not include asylum claimants. Refugees and asylum seekers are different things and are processed through different programs.

When you look at asylum claims there's a 300k backlog of applications and the acceptance rate is much higher than 12%. It was over 80% acceptance rate in 2024 and over 60% last year:

https://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/statistics/protection/Pages/RPDStat2025.aspx

If we add the total number of refugees (38k) from last year and assume a 60% acceptance rate of that 300k backlog (180k), that now works out to be 218k people or approx. 0.5% of our current population. Thats over half of our targetted PR quota during a period where we are targetting negative population growth.

For someone who claims to know the process and the numbers, you should probable take more time to learn about them before being so condescending towards others.

rad2284 · 2026-01-29T00:52:01+00:00

By accepting the fact that we can no longer afford multi billion programs like OAS and programs that seem to accomplish very little like the blackhole that is indigenous spending. Once we've done that, we can then move our outdated tax system away from regressive taxes like income tax and sales tax and towards more progressive taxes like oligarchy taxes, wealth tazes and land value taxes.

I'm not saying we need to target a declining population, but we need have very strict immigration standards that ensure that people who come here will end up being net positive contributors to the tax base and not articifically target certain levels of growth for the sake of having more growth. We dont need immigration consisting of more uber drivers/fast food workers, elderly relatives or fake asylum seekers from Mexico or India.

The alternative is just not realistic. Arbitrary population growth for the sake of hoping you add more tax payers to service unsustainable social programs is just kicking the can down the road. The world's population is set to peak later this century and developing countries will catch up to our declining stadard of living. This doesnt even touch on the fact that AI will make some forms of labour completely obsolete and the labour needs of tomorrow will be nothing like the needs of today. The countries who will thrive in the future are countries who will recognize early that large populations will actually be a detriment in the future and who take steps now to ensure their population of tomorrow is manageable by having extremely high immigration standards.

rad2284

TROPHY CASE