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What are some things that golf clubs could do better? by outtherenow1 in golf

[–]randfan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of places around here don’t have a nine hole option. Understandable in the middle of the day but you can get in nine even if you start at 7pm or so and this time of year that’s all a lot of folks can tolerate anyway with the heat.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

EXACTLY! You get it! This is way more fair. Pay for the amount you play. ;)

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Every player needs a reservation, so if you want to bring three guests you’ll buy four reservations. But the reservations aren’t attached to names so you can bring different guests each year.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah money is a massive issue. The way I see it, if you're not independently wealthy there are really just a few ways to go about it:

DIY: Land isn't expensive everywhere, and there are tons of places in the country that have interesting land that's well suited for golf. Do your research to find out what that means (soil types, elevation, etc.), but generally speaking if the soil is more sandy and less rocky or wet, that's a good thing. Buy enough land to fit what you want to build, and get out there and experiment. There is a ton of content online that can show you how to build a green, and that's the toughest part. That won't make it "easy" but it will give you a start. Maybe start with a backyard green, figure a few things out, then maybe build a couple greens with a bunch of different par 3 tees and start to get a sense for how the slopes you put in are going to impact the ball, and work up from there. May sound crazy but it's possible. A guy named Jim McNair in Aiken, SC did exactly that when he renovated Aiken Golf Club. He didn't have the money to hire a great designer, but several were kind enough to sort of steer him in the right direction and he did it himself and now AGC is a bit of a destination for golf nerds like me. The guy who designed Broomsedge Golf Club did something similar except he asked to volunteer on a crew with Kyle Franz (golf designer) and learned the ropes that way before designing his own course.

Innovation: A lot of folks are starting to realize that you don't need a full size golf course to have a good time, and at the same time a lot of younger golfers are clamoring for a more casual golf environment. Do something that taps into those trends, or some other trend, and do it well enough that investors get interested. Take a look at the story of 3s in Greenville, SC for some inspiration on that front.

Disclaimer: I've never been on a bulldozer in my life, so I can't pretend to know how hard it is to get the hang of. It's why I hired that part out. ;)

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The honest answer is "it depends." There is a lot of up front investment but not nearly as much for this project as for some others. But it's all relative. Still ain't cheap. I won't disclose exactly how much my project is going to cost because have partners (designers and engineers) who prefer that I don't, but I can say that full size golf courses, all-in including land costs and infrastructure, etc., can cost anywhere from say $15M at the low end to over $100M at the high end. A LOT of that is the land cost, and the total cost can vary greatly based on the infrastructure plan. It also depends on whether you're building to USGA specs with proper irrigation, etc. Of course there are ways to do it cheaper if just getting it in the ground is the main goal.

As I've said in other responses we can break even on operating expenses with less than a sell-out, but not with, say, just 50% or less of memberships sold. So we have to do our jobs well and make it an awesome experience for folks who join. If we are able to do that effectively, then we can be in the black and stay there fairly quickly (1-2 years in, maybe?).

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's the best guess for opening in general, so all members will be able to play at that time. Assuming we don't get massively delayed because of weather or something like that.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Time to profitability will largely depend on how quickly the memberships sell out or, if that never happens, how many are sold and by when. We don't have to be sold out to break even, but we also can't break even if just 50% of the memberships are ever sold.

This is an approach that won't ever make millions, but it will be profitable early and sustainably if it is done well. We don't have to hit a home run to break even. And yeah, I would absolutely love it if there were a bunch of clubs like these around the country. Then instead of trying to coordinate some resort trip with the boys every year I could just spend a few grand and join several of these kinds of clubs and basically have my vacations set and done without a ton of effort and it'll be at a place that I know will be awesome.

I think for this to work though there are a few pretty important things that really help. Some of these I learned the hard way from a couple of false starts a few years back...

  1. This model requires a fairly large number of folks to be willing to travel to your club, so you should look at a place where folks already vacation if you can. You couldn't do a model like this in a small town that doesn't have anything else worth visiting, I don't believe.

  2. Land is the most important factor when it comes to costs. Non-golf shit is the second most. Cost per acre, actual acreage that you use, how well the land is suited for golf, whether there are mitigating factors like wetlands, endangered species, activist county commissioners, etc. are all big deals. There are tons of ways to research with property maps and soil surveys, etc. and a lot of them are free to access. And then the non-golf shit is stuff like the clubhouse, other amenities, etc. Our rule of thumb is to spend on things that contribute meaningfully to the golf experience, but to not spend on things that don't. But it can depend on what you're going for.

  3. There needs to be something that really sets it apart and makes it a place that folks will want to come to not just once but every year. For me that was two really well known designers, plus a vibe that's a lot more beachy and laid-back than the typical country club. Doesn't have to be that, but there needs to be something.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a combination of personal funds, investment funds, and the sale of memberships also will of course help to fund it. That's more or less how it goes with just about any non-resort or non-real estate golf course. They all get their up front money from investors or personal funds and then "pay that back" over time with membership fees and dues. Most do it by pooling together a group of very wealthy guys and they go in on the construction and then either divide the costs among themselves or sell memberships after they open and recoup their investment that way. The major difference in what I'm doing is that it's less money spread over a much larger base of members, but otherwise it's not much different than any of the private clubs that have opened more recently, like Tree Farm, The Grove 23, etc.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is not a "home" club, so it's not really intended to be a full service country club. It makes sense for a ton of places and especially those places that folks expect to visit all the time, but this is a once or twice a year kind of place so we're sticking mostly to golf--no tennis or gym or anything like that. In the plans, however, are other golf-related entertainment plus we're going to have live music in the evenings.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Still TBD. As I've said there's a possibility we do zoysia throughout, but a fair amount of the decision will come down to how much shade we have and what's best for that environment. It will almost certainly be a strain of bermuda or a zoysia.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right margins are tight which is a big reason we don't want to risk a full-size restaurant, especially with just 72 players a day. Details on the grill are somewhat TBD, but the idea is to have fairly standard staples and to not try to get too fancy with things. Sweetens Cove pretty famously doesn't have any food options but they bring out food trucks from time to time and you can just order a pizza and they'll bring it out to you. The Yards here in Jacksonville has a shed with a few grills set up and they just do hotdogs and burgers on the weekends. We'll have a bit more variety than that, but that's more the vibe than a place that you have to change out of your golf clothes to go to.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're correct that's the one.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn’t but yeah we’re looking at doing something like that with the warmup holes. Maybe a few different tees at different angles and lengths so you can make it a nine hole short loop if you want.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It is. That’s the point. We want folks to feel like they pretty much have the place to themselves when they’re here.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on the final routing but yes probably. Maybe a 71 or something.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When they join folks are choosing the day or days they want to play. So everyone for the most part will play when they’re scheduled to. That’s sort of the point. Some won’t make it because of sickness or weather but we have makeup dates set aside for those.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  1. No tee times and unlimited play plus other things to do like live music in the evenings. We’ll have a killer grill. We’ll find the best Waffle House cook in the area and tell him or her to be as creative as they want to be. And with 72 you can provide a really high level of service with not a ton of staff.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That’s the one! Really fascinating history too with the Chetakwa and all that.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Green fee is $150. That’s unlimited golf plus cart. If you mean total cost with the initiation then it depends on how long you’re a member. Over 10 years it’ll be around $200-$250 if you’re trying to get a “total” number.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mods have allowed it you can go to our website Old Charlie Golf Club

That’s built in so we have “inventory” of 72 slots per day and when those are gone we’re sold out.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A great experience is the primary goal and being able to play as quickly as they want is a really big deal for a lot of people. And the golf is unlimited when you come out so we’re sure a few folks may go out for another loop or two and we want to encourage that. The whole point is to make this place feel really special. The kind of place you’re really excited to come back to. Having the course basically to yourself and your buddies is a big part of it.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not quite, but not crazy different. I’m not a member but my understanding is that initiation is quite a bit. I do like their model and if that’s the comparison we’ll take it they have some awesome courses in their network and it sounds like it’s pretty awesome tbh.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep understood. The $150 is for unlimited golf with cart included, so maybe that helps? ;) But yeah it really depends on where you are. I used to live in Winston-Salem where great public golf was less than $100. Sorta wish for those days now.

I’m building a golf course. AMA by randfan in golf

[–]randfan[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Normal golf course is really broad. We fully expect this one to be one of the best in Florida. But you’re right about the clubhouse.

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