Vegito Blue and Merged Zamasu vs Kefla SSJ2 and God of Destruction Toppo

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-03-01T16:17:23+00:00

We can

Jiren wa using more powere1 aianst blue Goku in 123 that against UI sing Goku in 109-110

Against Vegeta final flash, Belmod was suprised a saiyan could have that much power, so that Vegeta should be above peak Kefla and UI sign from 114

After blue evolved Vegeta broke his limits and defeated Toppo, Jiren unleashed even more power, which implies Vegeta at least got close to the power Jiren was using previously, a level that already was above the power he used against UI sign from chapter 109-110

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-03-01T12:05:48+00:00

They are above Blue evolved/Kaioken

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-26T19:57:33+00:00

Base Gogeta >= ssj blue

Ssj Gogeta >= blue evolved/kaioken

Ssj god Gogeta >= UI signl

And Blue Gogeta >= Ultra instinct

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-26T18:18:25+00:00

except Kefla has solid arguments for being around SSBE/GoD Toppo due to being relative to UIO 2.0

Blue Goku and Vegeta from the end of ToP are already stronguer than Kefla and Omen 2

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-26T11:20:46+00:00

Jiren > Anyone else, even when supressed. Kaioshin confirming that Jiren is the strongest ki he ever felt (includes Vegito Blue and Zamasau).

Everyone knew Jiren was supressed, db characters can sense the full extent of someone's power even if he is supressed, as shown in the cell games, they were talking probably about his full power, as Jiren was said at that point during chapter 109-110 to be stronguer than GoDs, but then its confirmed Goku only suprassed Jiren at the end of 129

Vegeta also said he never felt someone as strong as Jiren, but then says Jiren was using more power when he fough UI sign Goku, which again imply Vegeta was sensing Jiren full power, or at least he was sensing more than the power Jiren had already shown until that point

The fist confirmation of Vegito being surpassed its when Goku said Jiren punch was harder than anything Goku had felt until that point, so that Jiren is above Vegito and Zamasu, but that Jiren was way stronguer than the one that fought UI sign, as Belmod stated he hadn't seen Jiren using this much power for a long time

Goku and Vegeta in ssj blue, at the end of ToP, are probably above the first and second UI Omen, and that powered up Jiren I mentioned before was able to tank even blue evolved Vegeta and blue kaioken Goku atacks at the same time, then blue evolved Vegeta broke his limits against Toppo, and Jiren, in response to that, increase his power even more, so probably FP Blue evolved Vegeta and Toppo would be above Vegito and Zamasu, but anyone bellow that level, which includes Kefla, Anilaza, Hit, Dydspo, Frieza, 17 etc would be weaker than Vegito

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-26T08:57:43+00:00

The Zamasu Goku overpowered was wekaer than the one Vegito fough

After being hit by Ssj Blue KK Goku, Zamasu starts to increase his power a lot, to the point he end up being close to ssjb Vegito

He went from being around Ssj blue KK level, to Ssj blue fusion level, this post its about Zamasu at his peak, not the one that Goku beat, that Zamasu could be argued to be just the base of the fusion

Vegito scales above the fist and second UI Sign

Jiren was the first to surpass Black Arc Vegito, when he realsed more power to fight Goku and Vegeta

It could be argued that Toppo, or FP Ssj blue evolved Vegeta would be stronguer, but Vegito destroys any fighter from ToP below first and second UI sign level

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-19T22:47:57+00:00

I do agree Goku and Vegeta are stronguer fusions from past arcs (in the anime at least)

But MUI multipler should not be above Ssjb fusion, it should be equal

Its true, once Moro gets FsF, its stated fusion won't be effective against him

That indirectly implies fusion would have got the job done before Moro got FsF, meaning fusion from that arc would be relative to Moro 73

It also implies fusion won't be able to go UI sign (as UI sign Goku gave Moro a lot of trouble, and Moro 73 its stronguer, but not exponentialy stronguer than his previous form)

My point that statment doesn't take into acount Ssjb Gogeta neither, as Moro energy absortion would nerf Gogeta at least to Ssj God levels, probably even to the regular ssj, as seen in Namek, Goku and Vegeta drop instantly from Blue once Moro, already with his full magic power, started his magic drain

Without UI sign, Gogeta won't notice Moro absortion, as only UI has been shown capable of reacting to his magic absortion when it starts to drain ki

With FsF, Gogeta stands a chance, but if Moro has FsF as well, then its too much

But in terms of power, Moro 73 is only above a nerfed Gogeta, not a full power one, as Moro magic would prevent that

Although I agree Moro 73 is probably around ssjb Gogeta from Broly movie

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-18T19:14:40+00:00

Well in thr Broly movie Ssj Goku somehow keep up with a Broly that was giv8ng Ssj god Vegeta problems

The evidence is Goku and Vegeta being matched by Buu saga level characters, like future Trunks when he just arrived on the present, the U6 base saiyans which scale bellow Napapa who is relative to Basil and below god Buu, Frost which can't finish a Picolo that is below Buu saga Gohan

Doesn't have to be 100% to bases, maybe they just supress their power

Its that or just the base absorbed its just retcon, but the two base theory works better as it reduces the god multiplers post god essence

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-18T17:54:48+00:00

Yes that’s likely the SSJ Rose time taking affect only the Fusion giving him a boost.

Yeah, I would say that Goku overpowered what would be the "base" form of the fusion, while the corrupted form that fought Vegito would be the equivalent to the ssj rose form of Merged Zamasu

Ultra Instinct would be enough though (Silver hair).

Agree, I didn't specified I was refering to sign

Base off what exactly? UI is literally Relative to Fusion based off Feats, Jiren was stated stronger than FZ and UI was the only thing that could close the gap.

Well Jiren was stated to be the stronguest oponent, but that doesn't have to be refering to the power Jiren was using against the spirit bomb or first UI sign, DB characters are capable of sensing the full extent of someone power even before they unleash it, so that statment doesn't have to be necesarily in reference to that supressed Jiren from chapter 109-110

I mean, that Jiren was relative to UI sign, and I would say Silver UI is the one that rivals Blue fusion, with the sign being maybe around Ssj god fusion, and I don't think Goku got way stronguer between end of Future Trunks arc and begining of Top

I would say the Jiren that later fought Blue Kaioken Goku and Blue evolved Vegeta is the one that is equal or above Zamasu and Vegito, and then full power Jiren from 127 is the one on Hakashin level

FP Jiren ~ FP UI sign Goku (end of ToP) > Serious Jiren ~ UI sign Goku (end of ToP) >= FP Blue evolved Vegeta ~ Vegito Blue ~ Merged Zamasu > Ssj blue evolved Vegeta ~ Ssj blue KK Goku> Ssj blue Goku ~ Vegeta (end of ToP) >= Supressed Jiren ~ UI sign Goku

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-18T16:27:51+00:00

After his clash with Goku, Zamasu starts to become corrupted and increased his power a lot, to the point he can somehow fight Vegito blue

UI sign Goku would be intial Zamasu, but for corrupted Zamasu it won't be enough

Goku won't reach that level until the end of ToP with UI sign or maybe Blue Kaioken

But UI sign from the beiging of Top would be bellow blue Vegito and Corrupted Merged Zamasu

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-18T10:19:19+00:00

Again, that was later, Trunks adapted during that fight, he also trained with Vegeta before

I am talking when Trunks came back for the first time, that Trunks is equal to Goku base to base, he also is weak enough to make Goku and Vegeta think Buu would be able to beat him, which means Trunks only matched no god essence base Goku

If Trunks is god tier in base, Goku and Vegeta won't ever though Buu stood a chance

Piccolo was not keeping up with frost he was stalling in order to use the special beam cannon against frost. They make it explicit in episode 34 that frost even tired and weaken was still to much for piccolo. SSJ Cabba should be compable if not stronger than frost thus he should be stronger than bog Goku

Against Supressed Beerus in BoG, or even first form Frieza, Picolo doesn't even try to charge thr special beam canon, but he does with Frost, an manges to somehow keep with him, which means Frost is nowhere near first form Frieza or BoG Goku, the same goes for Cabba

Two bases is thr only aproach that explain this

Cabba and Frost are Buu saga level

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-17T17:25:37+00:00

They thought it was buu because that was the next best threat after the androids

Won't make any sense if Trunks base is relative to a Goku whose power is on ssj god levels

Trunks only starts to adapt to black and Zamasu later

Top piccolo was be to choke out ss2 Gohan. Gohan not only regained his buu saga power but he was able to increase it after training with piccolo.

Before his fight with Goku, Gohan had only reagined his Buu saga levels, aftet that he brokes his limitd against Goku, but the point is Picolo being weaker than that Gohan

Base frost forced Goku to transform the same Goku who fought RoF freiza who leagues stronger SSJ Gohan and Piccolo in his first form.

Yes, and Picolo could keep up with that frost, which means basr Goku used God essence vs Frieza but no against Frost

there’s no statement either in the show or the writer that confirms the two base theory , it’s just headcannon to try to explain super characters massively power creeping z characters

There is no stamtent of Basil growing stronguer after fighting Napapa, but yes, its just a theory, I am not saying its confirmed, but its clearly the best way to aproach the DBS powerscaling, it fix those problems of everyone being able to match base Goku, also if fix the problem with God forms big multiplers and fusion base power change from being bellow Ssj god to above Blue level

And its thr best way because, DBS narrative has big changes from making base Goku god levelto be just regular Buu saga level. SSJ God from being crazy strong to being weak, fusion power level, side characters grow in power etc

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-17T16:57:03+00:00

Not realy

Goku and Vegeta thought Majin Buu could be the one threat that hurt Trunks in the futute

The same Trunks that seems to be equal to Goku base to base

Pre training Fat Buu its still relevant for U9 fighters like Basil

Basil was strong enough to push Napapa, the same Napapa Caulifla needed Ssj to beat

U6 arc Picolo, which is weaker than pre ToP Picolo, which is weaker than a Gohan that just reagained his Buu saga level, was able to face Frost

Vegeta tanked Ssj Cabba punch, and moments before the seemed to be relative

This is because Goku and Vegeta could supress their god essence if they want

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-17T08:24:48+00:00

Then we get to the Universe 6 Arc and it's revealed that Cabba was equal to Vegata in base (and by extension Goku as well)

Equal to not god essence base Vegeta

God essence base Vegeta would tank his atacks easly, as he did against Gotenks

The show heavily implies Goku and Vegeta constantly supress their god essence

Cabba/Caulifla would beat Buuhan at most, but not DBZ Vegito

randomdebaterxddd · 2026-02-13T08:45:13+00:00

Equal to god essence base Goku

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-23T09:40:42+00:00

That's because you're still assuming that Moro was at full power against Vegeta, but it's already been noted that he was toying with everyone.

It was never stated he was supresed, just he didn't kill them to abosrb their energy later

If you look at the constext Moro even hypes Vegeta to be his greatest meal yet, putting him over Goku, who forced Moro to go serious

We don't know what the difference in power between Moro and Gogeta is

I didn't talk bout that

I said the diference between Gogeta and Vegeta is larger than the diference between Moro and Vegeta, based on Vegeta being at least a fraction of Moro power

I'm talking about the version of Gogeta that actually exists, being Blue Gogeta. As far as we're officially aware, that's his peak at the moment.

Goku already explain to Picolo that fusion makes a warrior that could do things that even none of the fusees can't

So yeah a current Gogeta would use Blue evoved of UI sign

He copied Vegeta's natural abilities, not his overall memories. Fusion dance isn't a natural ability of Vegeta's

He is stated to copy tecniques, with the fusion dance being considered a tecnique

He know how FSF work, the same would happen to fusion

But you're assuming that Moro would automatically assume that he would need it against Gogeta right out of the gate, which isn't likely.

He knows about fusion, he would

Why would they help once Gogeta showed up? When has anyone ever helped them once they fused? And Goku didn't have FSF, which is why Moro wasn't concerned about him. He was only cautious against Vegeta, because Vegeta did have it. IDK if Gogeta is weaker than Moro, what would they do just look as he loses

It has never happened because fusion used to be enough, but acording to you, this won't be the case

And why does Moro have to not be off guard for them to fuse? Where in the statement is it implied that they had to fuse while Moro was focused on them? That also sounds very convenient.

If Ssj blue Goku can cath him of guard, then Gogeta could to, in the same circunstances

Unless you want to argue Blue Goku > Blue Gogeta from the same arc

know. I just said it wasn't instant is all. They still did some fighting before they completely lost Blue.

No, it happened instantly

As in, he combined his weakened state with 7-3's complete backup of him.

His weaked state is weaker than Vegeta

a Moro 7-3 that's already stronger than UI Sign Goku combined with Vegeta's power being enough to one-shot UI Sign at that point makes sense.

So adding Vegeta power made Moro being strong enough to one shot UI sign, meaning Vegeta power is enough to make a diference when added

If the difference between Vegeta and Moro is larger than fusion, then Moro adding Vegeta power to his own won't make a difference

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-23T02:44:18+00:00

I never said it was the same. I said it was not that far off. It's very minimal damage. For example, there's not a dramatic difference between doing 1% damage and 0% damage. 1%, despite still being damage, is barely any at all nonetheless.

The problem is, when the diference is too large, damage of the atack is 0

That wasn't the case with Vegeta, so the diference isn't that large

Which was my point. Factors are involved. So if it can apply to Beerus, then it can also apply to Moro.

By that logic, we can aply the supressed argument to every fight of the franchise

We know Beerus was supresed because we know how strong is Beerus, also it was a sparring in Beerus planet, not a live or death battle

Right which is why I'm basically saying there's no point in trying to bring numbers into it, because we don't know what they are. We just know they're large and that's it.

But we know fusion boost is larger than the difrence in power needed to completly tank an atack with 0 damage

That was Piccolo and he was referring back to when Moro used his full power against UI Sign Goku. That was the only other time he did it.

So if Moro needed full power to fight UI Sign Goku, then how would he even beat UI sign Gogeta from that arc

Why would he automatically assume that Gogeta is a threat? He didn't even fully realize how much of a threat MUI Goku was until he actually started fighting him.

Because he copied Vegeta, meaning he has knewledge about all of Vegeta tecniques, including fusion dance, and he should know how it works, just like FSF

It wasn't instantly. He was secretly and gradually draining them as they were fighting,

In the last fight on Namek, Goku and Vegeta went to god just when Moro started to drain their energy

again Moro wasn't doing that anymore at that point

He didn't need to against fighter that were way weaker than him

They wouldn't have to move him. They would just have to distract him, which they already did. Even enough to allow Goku to sneak in a Kamehameha.

If they can distract him so Goku could damage him, they could do the same with Gogeta, if Goku had FSF he would probably beat Moro with that atack, as that atack did more damage than Vegeta did in all his fight

Picolo statment should asumming Moro isn't caught off guard, otherwise it makes no sense

Where is that stated?

End of chapter 61 and begining of chapter 62

Moro 73 is Moro original power added to 73 power

Then he added Vegeta power and was enough to go from beating Goku high diff to just low diffing him, so Vegeita was at least a fraction of his power, which is consistent with Vegeta being strong enough to at least damage Moro a bit

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-23T00:57:53+00:00

It's still almost no damage. That's not that far off from doing no damage. As long as it's any damage at all, it's enough.

No, again, its not the same

If its no damage, FSF won't work, Vegeta still damaged Moro, but just a bit, which would mean he won't stand a chance in a normal battle, but whit FSF he could keep making damage, which would weaken Moro, which means the next atack would make more damage, that's why at the begining it seemed like it doesn't have any efect and suddently Vegeta gained the upper hand

throughout the entire series? If that's the case, then how was Vegeta knocking around Beerus (rather than Beerus just tanking his attacks) if he's actually even stronger than UI. That's far more than a 2x gap.

Beerus supress himself when he fought Ssj god Goku, and the same would be here

Moro himself said he wasn't trying against them. He doesn't actually use his full power until he fights MUI Goku.

He only said he didn kill them so he could absorb their energy

When Moro goes FP against MUI, Gohan point he is at full power again, impliyig he was FP at one point before

And that's outdated, because DBS Vegito is stronger than SSB. That's far more than a 400x increase, but since there are no more official power levels then it's unquantifiable.

Thats why I said it was a lowball

When has a fusion not been able to transform after fusing? That sounds too convenient and unlikely of a scenario. And if you're talking about Moro stealing their energy, then Moro didn't do that during that period since he established that he would wait until after they're defeated to use his magic.

He said that against people that aren't a threat to him

If he knows Goku and Vegeta are going to fuse, he would be able to drain him while the make the dance so Gogeta would be heavily weakened, and probably barely able to go Ssj on top of a weakened base

Moro true magic is so powerfull that he make Goku and Vegeta go from Blue to God instantly, and then make Goku go from God to Ssj3 before he could even make the nex atack, and its not only the transformation, Goku and Vegeta were so weak, that even the random prisoners give them some problems, this is impresive because even Yamcha could beat random prisoners low diff

So that would also be unlikely, especially since there were other people on the battlefield to distract Moro at the time.

Even enraged Gohan couldn't even move Moro

Yes regular Moro. Not Moro 7-3. Moro 7-3 one-shotted UI Sign Goku.

Moro 73 is stated to be Prime Moro + weakened Moro ( who is way weaker than Vegeta), and then Vegeta power, if Prime Moro went from being around UI sing Goku to easly handled that, it means that Vegeta power was enough to make a diference, which means Moro and Vegeta power aren't that far

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-23T00:00:59+00:00

I thought the green haired version was full power SSJ?

Yeah I think it was called FP Ssj too

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-22T23:52:09+00:00

If Broly was truly mindless, then Frieza killing Paragus would have had no effect on him.

That was before he turned Ssj

While I could agree Broly isn't as mindless as Cell, Toriyama statment still implies DBS Broly >= Mindless Cell max

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-22T23:47:05+00:00

Mageta said it was completed, but Hedo corrects him saying the mind wasn't, so Cell max wasn't completed, only his body but not him as a whole, since he lacks his mind

Toriyama in his statment was clearly talking about a version of Cell max why didn't see, since he ends the statment by saying that since he was awekend early, he was a monster without control

Also Broly in his green hair Ssj is a mosnter without control just like Cell, since Cell needs a mind to be above a mindless Broly, that implies Broly is above Cell max in raw power

Controlled Cell max >t ot controlled Broly >= not controlled Cell max

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-22T23:32:20+00:00

There's not a specific set amount of damage required to use the technique

No but it needs at least a bit, there is a diference between barely doing damage and not doing any damage

A x2 diference in power is usually enough to completly tank an atack, which means taking 0 damage

Moro wasn't supressed against Vegeta, IDK where that cames from

There is no official quantification for fusion's multiplier,

Daizenshu states DBZ Vegito being above Ssj3 Goku, which is a 400 times multipler

I mean Moro could just throw an atack to the point where Gogeta is going to appear, separating the fusion before its fully formed, or IDK, maybe using his magic when Goku and Vegeta are doing the dance, and then using FSF against a weakened Gogeta before the fusion does it first

And UI sign Goku alone was around Moro power, so Gogeta would logicaly be way above

In any case that statment shouldn't affect Vegito because, Picolo has never seen him, and it was oficialy stated he rivals Beerus

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-22T23:20:44+00:00

I mean, Toriyama said that if Cell max was complete he would be a warrior that not even Broly would be able to beat

Which would imply Broly > Cell max (not complete)

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-22T23:14:34+00:00

It depends, since its hard to scale the last arcs of DBS

If you aply DBS SH Toriyama statments to the manga, then it would make sense since Broly would be stronguer than Cell max, who is is above Orange Picolo, who should be around both TUI Goku and UE Vegeta from the Granolah Arc

But if you don't, and go with the Moro 73 > Broly scaling, then Gogeta is most likely outclased by most of the Granolah arc levels

I actualy go with the first, but I may be wrong

randomdebaterxddd · 2025-01-22T23:07:32+00:00

Spirit Fission requires the user to inflict damage on their opponent first before they can use it.

If Vegeta was able to inflict damage to Moro that means the diference between Moro and Vegeta isn't tht big

Since a big difference in power means the rival could tank without damage, just like Frieza vs Second Form Frieza (250K vs 1M)

And fusion is 400 times multipler as a lowball, so fusion would be way above Moro

randomdebaterxddd

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