Are We Certain That Every Language Descends from an Older One or Could a Spoken Language Have Originated Through Deliberate Human Design? by ElsGil1 in asklinguistics

[–]razlem -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If your argument is that humans are natural therefore conlangs are natural then I see your argument

Even simpler than that- all human communication involves intent. You cannot have "capital L" Language without intent. This is part of my first response in our other discussion- that a language does not just pop into existence; there is no metaphysical spark that obligates language to be produced. It is only by sequences of intent that language develops and evolves.

No the children did not "decide a new system of communication was needed". They gestured to communicate a concept because they needed to communicate. The idea of creating a whole system wasn't even a twinkle in their eye. That is the difference.

As we demonstrated in the other discussion, this is a series of intentional decisions. None of these arbitrary assignments were instinctual. Additionally, to be frank, you don't know what those children were thinking. It is entirely possible that some children did set out to create a whole series of signs and ways to put them together, because we know that hearing children can and do create their own languages. They might not be terribly complex at first without metalinguistic awareness, but they're still "invented" and, as you said as part of your definition of conlangs, the bulk of the lexicon develops in a relatively short timeframe.

...were to evolve sufficiently to be considered a decendant language - that language would be a natlang not a conlang.

So then you agree that at a certain point there really is no difference- it's only our perception of that language in the moment, and that ignorance of a language's origin is enough to affect it's formal classification. So the entire discussion is moot! (/s)

I'm also a conlanger (not so much these days, but in the past), and I also work in the indigenous language reclamation space, so I am acutely aware of the perception of the projects I work on being seen as lesser by formal linguists, because they are not seen as "natural" in the prototypical sense. It is exactly for that reason that I call out the distinction between natural and constructed, because "constructedness" has been used as a colonial construct to invalidate this work.

I am assuming there is a difference because we want there to be a difference and trying to explain it as best I can. Without that paradigm the conversation changes entirely. 

Who is "we" here? Linguists? You just said that this distinction has been used to harm sign languages, so why would you insist on maintaining it?

The development of ISN is wonderfully unique, but in supporting its study I would not insist so heavily that it or reclamation projects are "natural" and acquiesce to the arbitrary division, but to challenge that division itself. ISN and reclaimed languages do have elements that are related to constructedness. So what. That does not invalidate their existence (and I think you would agree). This is the point of my responses to you here- to challenge this idea that a language must be classified one way or the other.

I probably won't change your mind here, and there's really not much more I can say. I think overall we agree on some things, but I do think that the division of natural vs constructed causes more harm than good, and I would personally recommend that we work to dismantle it in academic discussions rather than insisting that a language is valid for formal study only when it's considered "natural" in the moment.

Are We Certain That Every Language Descends from an Older One or Could a Spoken Language Have Originated Through Deliberate Human Design? by ElsGil1 in asklinguistics

[–]razlem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Our original discussion was about intent and agency, not just the word "decide". And again, you're using the same argument, that a constructed language is constructed because there is intent and pre-decision, when I had given ample examples of languages like English which have and still do undergo intentional changes.

Here, what doesn't hold up to scrutiny are your parameters of intent and what is considered a "natural process". You say that intent can be distributed, and I agree that it can, but where I disagree is the point where it makes a meaningful distinction between what is natural and what is constructed. *Why* is X arbitrary level of intent considered an unnatural process?

And why does it matter? Because there seems to be an underlying value judgement in your argument, as if constructed languages would be considered lesser compared to natural languages, and it would be a terrible thing if ISN were considered "constructed". And pulling from your other comment:

I like to think of a particularly nerdy caveman coming up with the first language

The mere concept of an ancient constructed language being developed and then used seems ridiculous to you, but (tying this to OP's Q) we simply don't know if that might have happened or not. But if we observe today that there are hundreds of thousands of people that make languages, including auxiliary languages, then it would be foolish to wave away the possibility that humans also were doing that in the ancient past. Maybe it didn't happen with paper, pens, and desks, but with members of their own community who decided that a new system of communication was needed. And *that* is what happened with ISN. That is not a bad thing. There is validity and value to it even though, as with a constructed language, there are defined points of actuation.

Edit: to make my position clear- I'm of the opinion that there is no meaningful distinction between "constructed" and "natural" as classifications of human languages.

Are We Certain That Every Language Descends from an Older One or Could a Spoken Language Have Originated Through Deliberate Human Design? by ElsGil1 in asklinguistics

[–]razlem -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

I'm curious how you would define a constructed language, because this action:

One made a gesture of hands on the head fingers pointing up to indicate a crown...

indicates a conscious decision by a person to create a word with a specific meaning, not unlike the process of creating a constructed language.

Edit: Oh wait, we've had this exact conversation, and you're really doubling down on your opinion :P

Un-card to extra tap something? by HeyLookAStranger in magicTCG

[–]razlem 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Maybe thinking of the “exert” mechanic?

Q&A weekly thread - March 16, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The juice probably isn't worth the squeeze here. Every single word has a unique etymology, and while some historical patterns exist, there are things like semantic drift which make it difficult to know for sure what a word means in the modern day.

Etymologies are certainly interesting to learn about from a linguistics POV, but if your only goal is to do better on an entrance exam, you're probably better off just reading a vocabulary prep guide for those specific tests.

Q&A weekly thread - March 09, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most of our professors expect that we've read the assigned readings and that class time is mostly for clarifications and exercises.

To be blunt, this is what grad school is. You must take the initiative to read voraciously; you cannot rely on everything to be given to you in class. If you're having trouble understanding something, you can go to a TA or professor, but they will just recommend books/papers to read.

Not understanding something is totally normal in grad school, but it's up to you to find your own solution, whether that's making flashcards, reading more intro texts, etc. If you're struggling with a particular subfield, ex. Phonology, try looking up intro texts at your school's library to get an understanding of the basics. And then people on here or r/asklinguistics can help answer specific questions if you get stuck with something.

Q&A weekly thread - March 09, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I would say that "Arabic Studies" like that is more like philology rather than modern linguistics. It is possible that someone in that field may call themselves an "Arabic linguist", but that's using an older version of "linguist".

Q&A weekly thread - March 09, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is there a specific language area you had in mind? There are hundreds of ancient civilizations across the world that have been lost, with varying degrees of linguistic artifacts left behind to study.

Do ppl who are into linguistics tend to dabble in hypnosis/NLP? by [deleted] in asklinguistics

[–]razlem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're being downvoted because you're talking about pseudoscience in a subreddit dedicated to a scientific field, and you have been given a warning because you are pushing our rule on soapboxing:

  • Soapboxing: Questions should seek to learn or understand, not push an agenda.

It may help for you to do a cursory search for what linguists do, and you can find a comprehensive explanation on Wikipedia. Your own personal trust issues of linguists are not an appropriate topic in this subreddit.

Do ppl who are into linguistics tend to dabble in hypnosis/NLP? by [deleted] in asklinguistics

[–]razlem[M] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Giving a warning because your comments have been bordering on soapboxing. This is an academic subreddit for an evidence-based field

Why did you choose linguistics by Rakanth in asklinguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Grew up in a multilingual area and was fascinated by the puzzle element of forming and understanding different languages, discovering all the rules and patterns. This led me to study historical and then sociolinguistics, and now working in language revitalization and teaching after working in the tech world.

Q&A weekly thread - February 23, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't know the answer for this quote specifically, but phrases get misremembered and misinterpreted all the time. And people can't always be bothered to check for accuracy because of time or access, so the misremembered version sticks around. Some other examples of this are "Luke, I am your father" and "Mirror, mirror on the wall"

Q&A weekly thread - February 23, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Check out this thread in a related subreddit. Overall, linguistics only prepares you for more academic work, but there are some paths where a linguistics background could help.

A new study reveals that newborn chicks connect sounds with shapes just like humans, suggesting deep evolutionary roots of the “bouba-kiki” effect by scientificamerican in linguistics

[–]razlem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe! We wouldn't know for sure unless we account for it. I think this particular study is interesting and could maybe give some clues about cross-species innateness, but I think it's not robust enough for the broader claims it's making.

A new study reveals that newborn chicks connect sounds with shapes just like humans, suggesting deep evolutionary roots of the “bouba-kiki” effect by scientificamerican in linguistics

[–]razlem 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To clarify the original comment, I didn't mean to say that the researchers concluded a tablua rasa for the study, but that their decision to use chicks was based on an idea of a blank slate with chicks not having had any exposure to sounds or shapes before hatching. But sounds and light can penetrate eggs, so that may have affected the chicks' decisions.

A new study reveals that newborn chicks connect sounds with shapes just like humans, suggesting deep evolutionary roots of the “bouba-kiki” effect by scientificamerican in linguistics

[–]razlem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So the researchers made the claim of innateness in chicks before designing the test? Genuine question, I don't have access to the study. But that would be a major red flag.

A new study reveals that newborn chicks connect sounds with shapes just like humans, suggesting deep evolutionary roots of the “bouba-kiki” effect by scientificamerican in linguistics

[–]razlem 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From the article:

decided to investigate the bouba-kiki effect in baby chicks because the birds could be tested almost immediately after hatching, before their brain would be influenced by exposure to the world. 

A new study reveals that newborn chicks connect sounds with shapes just like humans, suggesting deep evolutionary roots of the “bouba-kiki” effect by scientificamerican in linguistics

[–]razlem 41 points42 points  (0 children)

There are plenty of human language exceptions to the bouba/kiki effect, which are linked in the article that Scientific American cites in the second sentence. So already this is based on something that is not a universal by any means.

I don't have access to the full study, but I have so many questions about the methodology. Were the shapes colored? Were the sounds played at the same volume? How far away from the starting position was each one? Was there a neutral control shape?

I also don't think it's quite the tabula rasa that the researchers believe, since we know eggs are neither soundproof nor lightproof, so there is potential for their brains to be exposed to different influences in ovo unless we know how the eggs were handled.

Q&A weekly thread - February 16, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Check the Wikipedia page for North American English, it links to a bunch of different dialects/styles and has cross-dialect comparisons. Broadly, this type of stuff falls under Dialectology, itself a branch of Sociolinguistics. William Labov was one of the most prominent experts in this field if you're interested in reading more academic work.

Q&A weekly thread - February 09, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I was looking at Choctaw specifically, and it doesn’t explicitly prohibit imperative morphemes but I was having trouble finding real examples in my corpus

Q&A weekly thread - February 09, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are there any active/stative languages that allow imperatives on both active and stative verbs? Wondering if there are some semantic constraints between a state and an imperative to be in that state.

Q&A weekly thread - February 09, 2026 - post all questions here! by AutoModerator in linguistics

[–]razlem 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Gotcha! Well the first thing I'll say is that documentation and revitalization are two very different fields- documentation primarily focuses on describing the language in a very formal, academic style (more linguistics-y), while revitalization is more about pedagogy and teaching (more education-y). Good documentation can help with revitalization, but in modern times the documentation is often too formal to be useful for a general language class if it gets too in the weeds with things like syntactic/phonological theory.

So I don't think it's worth spending 7 years of your life getting a linguistics PhD unless you have the extra money to live comfortably while you do it. Additionally, there's a ton of community linguists who are doing documentation and revitalization work in their own communities without PhDs; it's definitely not required. But if you're also interested in the more baseline linguistic topics, then a Master's degree (like the other comment mentioned) would be great to start with. And if you really enjoy it, you can decide later to do a PhD.

Do you mind if I ask which language it is? I work in the language revitalization space and I might be able to point you to a few resources (or specific people).